Motor Spring Access etc -Advice Please

[poodling around]

you should do it yourself it isn't difficult and the first spring replacement is the worst in terms of fear ! once the fear is overcome you can repair any motor / spring

You mean in a kind of Charge Of The Light Brigade kind of thing lol

[poodling around]

All the advice is going to be awkward unless your motor is all the way unwound before you open it up to fix it!

Thank you VanEpsFan. I appreciate this advice as it is something I need to know.

I know curt mentioned this too. Why exactly is this important ?

I thought I would just let the spindle turn until it stops before doing anything.

That works--If you spin it a few more times by hand that is OK and can get that last residual 'jump' out of there. This should help. I took apart my big Victrola XIV one time and pulled the governor out while it was wound up; sticking my hand in the gears to stop it was not one of the most pleasant experiences in phonographs. So that's why; the jump can be hard on gears.

You have probably got this! You've been collecting for so long there's probably nothing you can't fix; just go ahead & surprise yourself.



Charles

I see what you mean ! Thanks. "I can and I will" lol !

[poodling around]

I have nothing but good news ! The spring canisters are removed.

But what to do next ?

1. They seem to be joined with some kind of a centre rod thingy. I can't seem to pull them apart - unless you have to pull a lot ?

2. However. I think that if the top canister can be opened and if that is the faulty spring then I don't have to bother with the lower one ? There seems to be a hole in the top side - is this something you could insert a small screwdriver into and prise it off ?

[VanEpsFan1914]

The center rod is going to be a driveshaft of sorts; the winding arbors (I bet) would be sitting on that? Pop the top cover off and let's have a peek. Yes, I think that top cover has the hole there to open it. That's more than they provided on the Victors.

[Curt A]

More than likely there is a circular clip, a set screw or pin in the drive shaft (the rod that goes through both spring barrels... something holds them together and needs to be removed to remove the drive shaft). There might be a collar on one of the barrels that keeps both barrels locked to the drive shaft and usually, it is the top barrel that is locked to the shaft. Look at the top where the shaft protrudes and see if it is locked with a clip, screw or pin... you might need to clean off the grease to get a good look. Otherwise it might be on the bottom, but wherever it is, you need to remove it to allow you to pull the drive shaft out of the spring barrels...

[Curt A]

"There seems to be a hole in the top side - is this something you could insert a small screwdriver into and pry it off ?"

Yes, that is a pry hole that you can insert a screwdriver in and leverage it off, assuming that there is not a collar on the cover that locks it to the drive shaft... Pry carefully so you don't bend the cover out of shape...

Click the image below to enlarge.

[poodling around]

"There seems to be a hole in the top side - is this something you could insert a small screwdriver into and pry it off ?"

Yes, that is a pry hole that you can insert a screwdriver in and leverage it off, assuming that there is not a collar on the cover that locks it to the drive shaft... Pry carefully so you don't bend the cover out of shape...

Aha ! I could not see a collar or pin in the top or bottom - maybe one could be in the middle ?

The top looks like it will just come off as it's hole is slightly larger that the spindle diameter. I think I can see the spring through the hole.

I have tried using a small screwdriver but it didn't move. Do you think it will just pop out and leave the spring inside ? It doesn't screw off or anything does it ? I may just have to use more effort ? I will have to be careful I don't damage the outside cog teeth too. Could I place a screwdriver on the side of the hole and gently hammer it loose sideways first ?

What do you think please ?

[Curt A]

I just serviced a motor that had a similar issue. Mine did have a set screw holding the cover on, but if yours doesn't, then you are probably safe to pry it off. One thing I did before trying to remove the cover on mine is to soak it for several days in gasoline (not necessarily recommended for home use), but diesel fuel or kerosene, which are less flammable would work also. The reason I soaked mine, is that the cover was "glued" on with old grease in the spring barrel that had turned to a hard wax-like consistency and did not want to let go. I didn't have a "pry hole" in my lid, which made it harder to remove. You might try soaking those spring barrels or spraying automotive brake cleaner inside them to loosen the junk up. Since you have to disassemble them anyway, you should clean out all of the old grease possible and when finished with whatever repair you have to make, re-grease them with modern automotive grease. Just my opinion...

One more thing, if you are worried about the springs just "popping out", they won't... The only way they come out is if you pull on one end with enough force to start it out of the can, then you might have a problem if it gets out too far and unwinds automatically...

I was advised years ago by an old guy who had worked on these motors for years, that if you want to replace a spring, you have to be ready to control it and it's best to clamp the entire spring barrel in a vise before starting. Wear leather gloves, grab the end with vise grips locked tight on the spring, wear protective eye gear, a long sleeve heavy jacket and any other protection you can think of. Also, he said you could place the spring barrel in a heavy canvas sack before pulling the spring out, in order to contain it safely...

This same guy made one mistake repairing a motor. It happened when the spring got out of his control, whipped around and slashed his forearm, which then caused blood poisoning and sent him to the emergency room where he barely made it out from. Just be careful, and better yet, send it out for professional spring removal and repair...

[gramophoneshane]

It's a Swiss Paillard motor, and I've never seen them with clips or set screws before.
These should have a cut out on the edge of the round centre hole ( like the cut out on the lid to aid removing it) that allows the rivet on the centre shaft to pass through.

And don't be too worried about being hospitalised from these springs.
You do need to be careful and concerntrate on what you're doing though because YES these springs can be dangerous, but they're not the evil life threatening objects some people imagine/report them to be
.
Probably because this is your first spring removal you might be best to remove the BROKEN spring by putting the barrel in a canvas or hessian bag on the ground. Then with pliars (or vise grips) inside the bag, take hold of the broken end of the spring, and with your other hand take hold of the pliars on the outside of the bag.
Then you can lift the whole lot off the ground holding the pliars firmly, and give it a shake so the pliars pull the spring from the barrel inside the bag..
DON'T do this with good springs though because the force of the spring freely unwinding can break the outter end of the spring where it attaches to the rivet on the spring barrel.
Once the broken spring is out, clean it (perhaps even shorten it) and try winding it back in the clean barrel, just so you have a better idea of the forces involved with winding a spring back in.
By doing this, you'll be using a possibly shorter and slightly weaker spring to practice with first.

I know we've all heard spring related horror stories, but trust me they are quite rare.
I started doing springs myself when I was 13 yrs old, and was a scrawny little weakling, so you don't need to be some muscle Mary to do most average springs.
I wouldn't recommend doing diamond disc or triton motor springs until you're more experienced, but most others are not too bad.

I've done over 100 springs of all sizes since I was 13, and have never had an injury of any discription from a gramophone/phonograph spring, and of the collector's I've personally known (and all would have done more springs than I have), there was only one incident of a spring causing injury, when a 70 something year old guy I knew got two black eyes from the spring hitting the centre of his eye glasses. At least he didn't lose an eye.

And this is just my opinion, and I think everyone should make up their own mind themselves because there is no one right or wrong way about this, but there ARE different ways to achieve the same goals.
I personally tried gloves the first couple times I replaced springs, and I found them to be something I was better off NOT using.
Bare hands give me better grip on the spring and a better feel for how the spring was resisting as it's fed into the barrel.
I found gloves to be awkward and clumsy to use, and forgive me for saying, but it seems like more injuries occured to those who use them, or like both Kurt's friend and mine, they get injured where gloves won't protect them.
I guess for spring survival safety we all really should be wearing Hazmat suits.

Just remember to always be careful and concerntrate on what you're doing, regardless of whether you have gloves or not

[soundgen]

"There seems to be a hole in the top side - is this something you could insert a small screwdriver into and pry it off ?"

Yes, that is a pry hole that you can insert a screwdriver in and leverage it off, assuming that there is not a collar on the cover that locks it to the drive shaft... Pry carefully so you don't bend the cover out of shape...

Aha ! I could not see a collar or pin in the top or bottom - maybe one could be in the middle ?

The top looks like it will just come off as it's hole is slightly larger that the spindle diameter. I think I can see the spring through the hole.

I have tried using a small screwdriver but it didn't move. Do you think it will just pop out and leave the spring inside ? It doesn't screw off or anything does it ? I may just have to use more effort ? I will have to be careful I don't damage the outside cog teeth too. Could I place a screwdriver on the side of the hole and gently hammer it loose sideways first ?

What do you think please ?

It will pop out you need to use brute force though , a thin screwdriver or bradawl and a hammer will do the job , once off you can unhook the centre from the spring . the spring barrel can the be taken off as it has a slot in the bottom where the spring arbor rivet will pass through , you can then remove the top of the second spring barrel