...

[gramophone-georg]

Well, I guess that didn't go over too well...

From his user profile,

"[If] you folks were involved in Antique cars you'd all be driving rust buckets with all original interiors and acting like Original is Better... I'm done with all of you Snobs"

Well, I AM involved in antique cars and yes, I would prefer all original cars. Hardly see how that would make me a snob for driving a shabby old car. Oh well...

Yeah, I don't think we'll see this guy here anymore. He actually went and deleted the text and photos of whatever posts he could still edit!

I'm going to go ahead and be the odd man out here on this discussion.

I can't see the photos and text which is now gone, but I have my own ideas on "preservation" vs. "restoration" on both these machines and cars, so this is just general.

I think that restoration is fine so long as one does it correctly as original on rare and valuable machines and automobiles. One needs to be a "geek" and do copious research, including studying period photos and adverts.

The whole "it's only original once" argument is quite flawed when it's used as an excuse to look past "patina" and defects.

For example... on an automobile, paint actually serves a function... to preserve what's underneath. If it is dying or worn through to the primer, it's no longer doing what it needs to do. "It's only original once" is a frivolous argument in this case because the way it is now is no longer "original". If, by some miracle, you found a Model T that was stored away for 90 years with period tires on it, oil in the crankcase, and fuel in the tank, would you leave it? Of course not. The same with paint that's gone bad.

That said- there are two ways to approach the paint- the right way, which is by using a correct single- stage paint applied as original, or the "easy way out", a two stage base/ clear, which then looks silly and over- restored.

For my own part, I'd way rather have a Berliner that's in very nice restored condition with perhaps a few CORRECT reproduction parts that I can wind up and play every day than an "all original" beat to hell one that I can only look at because it doesn't work.

If you go to the Smithsonian or other museums you don't see disrepair. You see "museum quality" which means (hopefully) restored exactly as original.

On a talking machine, as long as a restoration is done with exacting attention paid to original, I'm very OK with that. This means no sprayed finishes and no high gloss where these things shouldn't be.

To my mind, modifications are fine as long as they can be easily reversed and the original parts come with. Sometimes this isn't possible, as in the case of my 10-50 "Hot Rod", which is a Victrola-Monkey creation- the marriage of a really superb 9-55 cabinet with no works and a 10-50 with a junk cabinet. I bought it to play records and will keep it forever, so I don't care as I also like the looks of the 9-55 cabinet better. The 10-50 "guts" fit so well they seem like they have always been there. It's so convincing I put a note on the back to alert possible future owners who quite likely will believe they have discovered a rare factory "special order".

Now, without seeing what Stone was working on, I'd reserve any judgement one way or another. Sometimes "conservation" and touch- up really is best. But again- we should keep in mind that first- opinions are just that, and second- this fellow was likely working for a customer who put in the request and calls the shots.

Seems we lost a member of this community who might have valuable knowledge/ techniques we could all benefit from at one point or another. That's too bad.

And that, as Forrest Gump would say, is all I have to say about that.

[JerryVan]

Well, I guess that didn't go over too well...

From his user profile,

"[If] you folks were involved in Antique cars you'd all be driving rust buckets with all original interiors and acting like Original is Better... I'm done with all of you Snobs"

Well, I AM involved in antique cars and yes, I would prefer all original cars. Hardly see how that would make me a snob for driving a shabby old car. Oh well...

Yeah, I don't think we'll see this guy here anymore. He actually went and deleted the text and photos of whatever posts he could still edit!

I'm going to go ahead and be the odd man out here on this discussion.

I can't see the photos and text which is now gone, but I have my own ideas on "preservation" vs. "restoration" on both these machines and cars, so this is just general.

I think that restoration is fine so long as one does it correctly as original on rare and valuable machines and automobiles. One needs to be a "geek" and do copious research, including studying period photos and adverts.

The whole "it's only original once" argument is quite flawed when it's used as an excuse to look past "patina" and defects.

For example... on an automobile, paint actually serves a function... to preserve what's underneath. If it is dying or worn through to the primer, it's no longer doing what it needs to do. "It's only original once" is a frivolous argument in this case because the way it is now is no longer "original". If, by some miracle, you found a Model T that was stored away for 90 years with period tires on it, oil in the crankcase, and fuel in the tank, would you leave it? Of course not. The same with paint that's gone bad.

That said- there are two ways to approach the paint- the right way, which is by using a correct single- stage paint applied as original, or the "easy way out", a two stage base/ clear, which then looks silly and over- restored.

For my own part, I'd way rather have a Berliner that's in very nice restored condition with perhaps a few CORRECT reproduction parts that I can wind up and play every day than an "all original" beat to hell one that I can only look at because it doesn't work.

If you go to the Smithsonian or other museums you don't see disrepair. You see "museum quality" which means (hopefully) restored exactly as original.

On a talking machine, as long as a restoration is done with exacting attention paid to original, I'm very OK with that. This means no sprayed finishes and no high gloss where these things shouldn't be.

To my mind, modifications are fine as long as they can be easily reversed and the original parts come with. Sometimes this isn't possible, as in the case of my 10-50 "Hot Rod", which is a Victrola-Monkey creation- the marriage of a really superb 9-55 cabinet with no works and a 10-50 with a junk cabinet. I bought it to play records and will keep it forever, so I don't care as I also like the looks of the 9-55 cabinet better. The 10-50 "guts" fit so well they seem like they have always been there. It's so convincing I put a note on the back to alert possible future owners who quite likely will believe they have discovered a rare factory "special order".

Now, without seeing what Stone was working on, I'd reserve any judgement one way or another. Sometimes "conservation" and touch- up really is best. But again- we should keep in mind that first- opinions are just that, and second- this fellow was likely working for a customer who put in the request and calls the shots.

Seems we lost a member of this community who might have valuable knowledge/ techniques we could all benefit from at one point or another. That's too bad.

And that, as Forrest Gump would say, is all I have to say about that.

To give perspective, I believe the machine in question is the one on the OP's website;

https://www.truerestorationsandmore.com ... de-model-b

[gramophone-georg]

To give perspective, I believe the machine in question is the one on the OP's website;

https://www.truerestorationsandmore.com ... de-model-b

Ah- I see.

I don't see any humongous cardinal sins there on the machine itself other than the finish is perhaps a bit too glossy but certainly not objectionable.

On the horn- I would have taken a different approach. I would have first gone to my automotive paint specialist for a computer match on the color. If that could be accomplished, second, I would have taken it to my artist to see if he/ she could EXACTLY duplicate the flowers. Failing either one of those, my suggestion to the family would have been to sell this horn as is and find a plain- Jane candidate with more severe paint issues to refurb in this way.

I'm thinking from what I am reading on his site about the machine is that the attachment is hereditary- this is a part of family history and the owners are not collectors- but they wanted it "worthy" of a place of prominence in their likely well kept home, and the way it was simply wasn't acceptable as a matter of their taste.

If his customer is happy and the machine is now displayed and used rather than in an attic or basement, or parted out on eBay... is this really such a bad thing?

[Mormon S]

Wow this is an unfortunate situation, never considered it would end up with him gone. I tried to be nice in my criticism but I guess too much will pile heavily on top of anyone.

I agree that he did what his customers wanted by making it centerpiece worthy for any home, however I truly think that it could have looked just as good with a cleaning and touch up

By posting on a forum, you are accepting the fact that you might get criticized. I think this person is simply tired of criticism and wants to pursue his hobby in peace, hence his website. I support that, but I think it's unfortunate that we lost a contributing member. We may not hear from him again, but I wish him luck.

Martin

[52089]

Wow this is an unfortunate situation, never considered it would end up with him gone. I tried to be nice in my criticism but I guess too much will pile heavily on top of anyone.

I agree that he did what his customers wanted by making it centerpiece worthy for any home, however I truly think that it could have looked just as good with a cleaning and touch up

By posting on a forum, you are accepting the fact that you might get criticized. I think this person is simply tired of criticism and wants to pursue his hobby in peace, hence his website. I support that, but I think it's unfortunate that we lost a contributing member. We may not hear from him again, but I wish him luck.

Martin

Your critique was fair, accurate, and also tempered. I also concur that most of the "restoration" was excessive and unnecessary, particularly the horn. This is of course an area where opinions will vary greatly.

[Jerry B.]

I think every category of collectables has a different level of tolerance to restoration ranging from it being a last resort to an expected endorsement. Music boxes and phonographs are closely related yet they seem to be at opposite ends of the restoration spectrum.

Personally, if I look at a machine and notice a major flaw, I am inclined to repair the defect if it detracts from the overall appearance. For example, if I looked at a long green Home and my eye was first drawn to a big gouge in the base rather than the nice banner decal, the missing wood would need repairing. I would do my best to repair the blemish and apply a finish coat to that immediate area that blended nicely with the rest of the original finish.

A few years ago I purchased a Victor Junior that I bought as a project. I posted "as found" photos of my machine as a starting point. The previous owner had worked around the so so decal and the overall finish was much too light. The support arm had been moved to a different location and the little stem on the underside of the horn had been moved. So I had a machine with extra holes in both the cabinet and horn, a worked around poor decal, and a overall finish that lacked good color. I was surprised by a reply that said they'd leave it alone an enjoy it "as is". If my memory is correct it was said or implied that it's only original once. From my perspective the little Junior has some really "poor history" and I was determined to give it some good history. So I disassembled the cabinet, stripped it completely, filled the incorrect holes in both the horn and cabinet, stained the cabinet, repainted the black horn, gave a few coats of finish, applied a new Cline decal followed by a few more finish coats.. The end result was a very attractive little Victor Junior and It did not appear to be fresh from the Victor factory.

My goal with any restoration is to hear the question, "is this an original finish or has it been refinished?" That's the bullseye for me.

I regret that we probably lost someone that could have been a contributing member of our Forum. I thought he took the initial criticism with good nature but we seemed to pile on a bit too much. I agreed with the comments but we drove it home a little too much.

Jerry Blais

[VanEpsFan1914]

I had thought everyone was pretty cordial, just that everyone was chiming in. The bad manners cropped up in the Music section when the new guy asked what his massive stash of Blue Amberols &c. was worth...I mean, of course no one can say that without seeing & hearing them, but still seems like we came down a bit harsh. And I didn't help by mistaking a 4m Everlasting for a BA.

The stripping & repainting of that horn bothers me because that was original 1911 Edison factory artwork, hand-painted. Even if they aren't signed they're nonetheless work of true artists. And now that all that got stripped, it's gone down the drain in a slurry of chemical sludge.

Look, I refinish stuff a lot & wouldn't think twice about stripping & refinishing my "originals" when they turn up in bad condition. I stripped & redid an Amberola & probably could have gotten away with patching the veneer like David (dzavracky) but ended up replacing the top & sides as well as sourcing a replacement bottom. So, pretty intensive. Someone would probably have said I needed to salvage the whole thing and you know what, they'd probably have been 100% right but I didn't have the skills to fabricate all the parts--just the veneer.

One other thing: not all restorations are good to "give something another 100 years" (which is a laudable sentiment I certainly share in whenever I fix something old.) I had a 1915 Underwood typewriter. It had been painted black wrinkle, even the insides of it had gotten in the overspray. This thing was uglier than homemade soap and covered in rust and grime and smoke and dead critters. So I being the idealistic typewriter restorer decided to fix it up: disassembled it & put paint stripper on everything.

Unfortunately all that did, was make paint sludge & clog the segment where the type bars go. The machine was sold for $10 as scrap parts to another hobbyist who was going to give it another shot at restoration. Come to find out, it had been painted back in the 1930s or '40s, and probably was re-used in the WWII typewriter shortage. Instead of salvaging history (by repainting it to look like all the other 1915 Underwoods out there) I ended up destroying history.

[tomb]

Looks like we lost a member. Tom

[AZ*]

I think the OP was rather thin-skinned. If you post on a public forum, you should expect to receive a variety of opinions that may differ from your own. With respect to the "only original once" comment in my earlier post, I did NOT state never refinish, but to do so when necessary.

While I agree that Gregg Cline makes fine decals, and for example, the restoration that billbossus completed on his Columbia BI Sterling using one was fantastic, I stand by my earlier post that stripping the case on this particular Fireside was unnecessary. As nice as Gregg's decals are, I would much prefer an original decal in good condition to one of Gregg's.

Just take a look at the before picture. But it's their machine, and if they want it stripped and painted hot pink, that's their choice.

[phonojim]

I did see the Fireside before pictures and I agree that it would have been better left alone. If he wanted us to praise his accomplishments, he probably shouldn't have published the before pictures.

Jim