Needles?

[Lah Ca]

Noob rambling regarding needles for conventional horizontally cut 78s – checking for comprehension.

Steel Needles

I have learned that there are three basic types of steel needles, soft tone, medium tone, and loud tone, and that it is the diameter of the needle shaft that makes the difference -- soft tone needles being thinner and having less mass are quieter – loud tone being thickest and having the most mass are louder.

I have also learned that there are spear tipped steel needles (after finding a used one stuck in the lid hinge of my Aeolian and then doing some research). These are apparently somewhere between medium tone and loud tone. There are some claims that they have better dissipation of the heat from the friction with the record and so do not lose their temper and wear as quickly and so can be used for more plays. There seems to have been historical variations on the spear point with a number of holes drilled in the spear blade to further help with heat dissipation.

Number of uses for steel needles

There seems to be many opinions on the number of times a steel needle can or should be used. These range from: one side, one needle; to two sides, one needle; to four sides, one needle; to eight sides, one needle; to it depends upon what is being played.

I have now received an order of Swiss-made Pfanstiehl steel needles. The vendor’s blurb for them says they can be used for up to twelve plays plus!

My own experiments with the steel needles that came with my Aeolian seem to indicate that four sides is pretty much the limit before the sound starts to become degraded and what is being played is put at risk. I have not pushed the Pfanstiehl needles to their limit, yet, but they seem to do much better than four sides, so far.

Sapphire tipped needles

There seems to be or have been extended-multi-use sapphire tipped needles for use in gramophones so that electrically recorded 78s can be played without destroying them. These do not seem to be common, at least not anymore.

Bamboo/Thorn needles

I cannot find a convenient source for these, but I noticed that the short, thin, double-pointed, bamboo skewers I purchased very, very cheaply for kitchen use could be modified to serve as needles. I cut some of the straighter ones in half, put them in my drill press, turned it on at slow speed, and then filed the shaft of the skewers down to where they would fit in my Aeolian. The results were quite pleasant if short-lived -- nice, quieter, but very detailed sound with acoustic recordings – but you only get one play without using a lubricant (which I am not) – and with a 12” disc you don’t even get a full play. And with badly worn electrically recorded 78s, the drag was so much that the needle acts as a turntable brake. My conclusion is that it is not time-effective to make my own bamboo needles. And furthermore, I would have to treat them somehow for them to be more durable – perhaps by soaking them in shellac. If I could find an inexpensive source for bamboo needles and if I could find a cheap and effective sharpener, I would probably use them in certain circumstances. My skewers were quite nice while they lasted.

Any advice, thoughts, or corrections here?

Thanks.

[52089]

There are also extra soft and extra loud needles. Extra soft is great for us apartment dwellers or for playing 78s on the later, more modulated side.

Standard steel needles were designed for one play, but some of us will do 2 plays. I will use one needle to play test several records, but that means I only test excerpts of each record. There are those who will tell you that is is a bad idea because of the way the records and needles wear each other down.

The Pfanstiehl and similar multi-play needles were generally designed for use with electric pickups that have much lighter tracking weight. They are not recommended for acoustic machines. You can however try Tungs-Tone needles on acoustic machines. Some swear by them, some hate them.

Bamboo/thorn needles have to be processed before trying to use them as needles. Fibre needles are not hard to find. Thorn needles are available from "Burmese Colour Needles" on this board.

Like many things you will find many different opinions on all of this.

[Lucius1958]

Proper bamboo needles are triangular in cross-section, and use the harder outer skin for the point.

- Bill

[Marco Gilardetti]

Speartip steel needles offer different "tone" quality wether the spear is in line with the grooves (mid-soft) or turned across them (mid-loud). That's the purpose. All the fuss about heat is just speculation as there are absolutely no heat-related issues when playing 78 RPMs.

Needles intended to play more than one record are - for obvious reasons - made in a steel which is harder compared to that used in standard steel needles. Of course they will not be especially gentle over the grooves. Since standard steel needles are cheap and readily available in huge quantities, personally I would not recommed using long play needles (except perhaps to quickly go through a lot of unknown records just to play test them).

The fellow selling Burmese Colour Needles (thorns) is registered as Orchorsol on this board.

[JerryVan]

Lately, I've become a bit of a record collector. What does that mean? It means, I'm paying more for records now than I ever dreamt possible. When I was young, I would never pay more than $1 for a record. (I was still able to buy lots of records!) Either my tastes have improved, (unlikely ), or the cost of nice records has escalated. Either way, I am not going to damage a record that maybe cost me $30*, to get a bit more life out of a 5 cent needle. It's about more than dollars and cents however. A record that you really enjoy is likely one that you should do your best to preserve. Needles are designed and meant to be perishable... records, not so much. I do 1 play per needle, and maybe rarely 2.

* Yes, I know to some, that's not an expensive record, but recall that I was raised on 25 cent 78's

[HMVDevotee]

Another variant are cactus thorns which have been "hardened." I have yet to find a source for new cactus thorns, but the "Peter Grey" thorns I have and use sparingly provide different tonal qualities than other needles. These thorns are quite thin at the point and play at about half the volume of "soft tone" needles initially, before their first sharpening. Given the volume of any needle is a function of its flexibility, a function of its diameter and density of material, the first sharpening of the taper of cactus needles will produce greater volume. What's more, cactus thorn needles' diameter is less uniform over it's length and the more you sharpen the needle, it's diameter grows and so does the volume produced.

It's been my experience that records with little to no groove wear can be played multiple times with cactus needles with no perceptible degradation in sound quality. "Peter Grey" instructions even direct the user to rotate the needle in the reproducer's chuck about 30 degrees (as I recall) to use again, before sharpening. Again, depending on the condition of the record, I have found this practice with both cactus and Burmese Color Needless a way of extending the use of each needle between sharpening. (Of course, a large dynamic range of any record will cause more wear to a needle, regardless of condition... another variable that effects fiber needles.)

Once my records are cleaned, I wax them and that lubricant changes the longevity of fiber needles as well. (Search for record waxing on the Board for further discussion.)

[JerryVan]

There are some claims that they have better dissipation of the heat from the friction with the record and so do not lose their temper and wear as quickly

Not sure what grade of steel needles are made from, or what their final hardness is, but if we assume the needle is made from 1095 steel, it would be tempered at about 400F. So, as long as you stay below 400F, I'd say you're pretty safe. I'm willing to bet it's not a concern

I think the idea of heat damage is more about the record than the needle, but I'm still not convinced it's an issue.

[gramophone78]

And then there were glass needles.....

[Lah Ca]

Regarding heat, where there is friction there is heat, and it is the vibration from friction that produces sound.

Quite a few years ago, one of the major US stereo magazines (Stereo Review?) had a very well researched article on the effects of tracking weight on record damage. They had very high magnification photographs, maybe even electron-microscope pics . The general conclusion of the article was that with vinyl records, it was not tracking weight bur cartridge misalignment that damaged records. The normal range of tracking weight (let's say 1 to 5 grams) brings an enormous weight down on a record at the points of contact with the stylus. Prorated out from the microscopic area of contact the weight was massive at the per square inch level. The drag against the record at this weight produced heat which melted the surface of the record to the depth of a molecule or so. The stylus behaved somewhat like an ice skate which slides on the water its friction on the ice momentarily produces. There was no visible damage to the record because of this. A misaligned cartridge, however, appeared to cause micro fractures and tears in the vinyl.

With gramophones, the tracking weight range is much larger, starting at a much higher weight, too, I would imagine, but then so too would the contact area between the stylus and the shellac compound of the record be larger. And there does not seem to be any alignment adjustment on my A-V's tone arm - back to the conundrum of master cutting lathes that travel laterally and styli that move in arcs. Whatever, there will be heat. How much and what does this do to needles and shellac compounds, I do not know. I don't imagine shellac melts like vinyl.

Whatever, again ... these are apparently from the 1920s:



Interesting questions here. I do not pretend to have any answers.

[Lah Ca]

Thank you to everyone for the very interesting and informative input here.