spring lube and cracked casting help please

[xtal_01]

OK ... first time I have touched a machine like this (I am a machinist by trade).

So, I was given a Victor Victrola ... VV-XVI ... free

Decent shape fore its age (typical dents, some wood damaged and split) but broken.

I took the motor off ..... some one had been into it before me ... screws were all loose.

I was afraid the springs were broken (three spring machine) ... but they are all in decent shape!

I see the shear pin behind the gear has sheared off.

So ... I will put a new pin in.

The grease (almost looks like graphite) it dry and caked in the springs ... almost solid.

If I soak the springs and get most of the junk out, what kind of grease do I put back in?

If I don't take out the springs, will it work it's way into the springs?

Also, the support casting holding the drum is cracked.

The crack is more than half way up so the bearing is staying in place.

Is there any chance of finding a new casting or ????

Thanks .... Mike

[Marco Gilardetti]

Hello Mike. You seem to be quite experienced with mechanics, however a three-springs machine is definitely a tough "starter" in this hobby.

The simple, direct question to the springs soaking thing is: no. If you want to do a decent work, the springs have to be taken out entirely, cleaned carefully until all of the dried up grease is removed, then put back into the drums and lubricated with grease (I usually warmly suggest molybdenum grease) or better yet a mixture of moly grease and graphite paste (non strictly necessary, but quite philological). There are a number of youtube videos showing the procedure of getting these springs in and out of their barrels, it requires force and cold blood but it can be done. The trick is to always hold them firmly and NEVER - for whatever reason - let things go. And NO, the edges of the springs are not sharp - who pretends that, clearly never really did the job. If you just soak the springs and relubricate them, they may work decently for some time (a more or less short time) or work undecently ever since, depending on luck and your expectations. If you rehaul the springs seriously as described, they will almost certainly outlast you.

The broken cast part absolutely needs to be replaced or soldered in my opinion. It is intended to keep in place a very heavy part that will exert a great force. Should that part difinitively fail, you'll have the main gear attached to the barrels spinning all over at full speed, destroying instantly whichever other gear or part of the motor or the horn or the cabinet it may get in contact with - a risk that I warmly suggest you to avoid at all costs.

If you can have it soldered decently, that's the way to go methinks. If you can't, there are many shops in the States (and how I wish there were some also here in Europe!) that seems to have in stock all kind of parts. Possibly thephonographshop.com is a good starting point, but other fellows may suggest more appropriate ones, I'm quite shure that you can find that part as a replacement.

[JerryVan]

I would use the broken piece as-is. It's never going to give you trouble. The screw will hold the broken piece in place.

[xtal_01]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I am still a bit confused on grease ... and as usual, I am probably over thinking this. Heck, any grease will be better than what they had 100 years ago.

I watched a lot of videos on how to take out and re-install the springs.

A few people swear by "green grease" ... from what I can tell it is a synthetic grease.

It just seems so hit and miss. One person said lithium ... then the next person said it will dry out after a few years. One said vasoline with graphite (as this is close to the original formula) ... then the next said not to do this.

And then even the oil ... one guys says STP oil treatment (funny this is the same think I coat bearings with when I rebuild an engine) ... then someone says it is too stick, just use a thin oil.

As this may never come apart again in my lifetime, I want to put the right lubricant on it.

Thanks ....

[JerryVan]

I'll just comment on the use of STP. In short, STP is not oil.
Any light oil, or even motor oil is fine, (but not 3 in 1 oil).

[Curt A]

Don't use Vaseline and graphite - that's what hardened in the spring barrels. Use any modern automotive grease, synthetic or not - if it's good enough for automotive bearings, it's good enough for a Victrola.

If you don't want to take the springs out, soak them in kerosene or diesel for a few days, drain the gunk out and finish cleaning with carb or brake cleaner and a stiff brush - then re-grease pushing it between the coils. That should take care of it for your lifetime...

"Also, the support casting holding the drum is cracked.
The crack is more than half way up so the bearing is staying in place."

As Jerry mentioned, the screw will keep it in place, but if you are concerned, clean the area thoroughly with alcohol and use JB Weld and the screw for a permanent repair... You can always replace the casting later, if desired.

[xtal_01]

Thanks for all the info!

I was wondering about the STP. I have some oil I bought last year that is specially blended for clocks. I used it to rebuild a telephone dial. I figure clocks can't get "sticky" after a long time of use.

I will take a good look at the crack tonight. I have a mig / tig welder but I think this is sooooo small, I might do more damage then good.

Not sure about solder ... maybe brazing ... or as you said, JB weld. I will have to give it some thought.

Thanks again !

Mike

[Marco Gilardetti]

Dear Mike, the reasons why I warmly discourage using oil are two. First: as Mike Child (user soundgen on this board) once pointed my attention to, due to surface tension the coils of the springs will tend to slip one over the other rather than detaching effortlessly as they do with grease. Second: oil will drip all over the horn and cabinet, as the barrels are not liquid-tight, and will possibly also smell.

Smell is also (one of the many reasons) why it is not advisable to simply let the whole barrels sit in kerosene or petrol or whatever. Gramophones are usually held in parlours or living rooms, and any object smelling of petrol residuals will not be well accepted by wives, relatives and visiting friends. But of course the machine is yours, and if you decide to go with gasoline and oil, it's perfectly fine with me. As you've seen, it's plenty of people who swear it's ok.

Coming to the type of grease, in my experience lithium grease is a cheap compound that has its fair use on gears where it is obvious that it will be renovated frequently. I used to use it anywhere once, and wherever I used it I regretted it, having to redo the task after very few years as the grease had completely dried up and got sticky. The reason why I warmly suggest molybdenum grease is because it still has lubricant properties even in case it may completely dry up. If you can't purchase a can easily, go for whatever else you think is best - as you've seen also in this case, there's people who swear also by lithium grease, that I don't use any longer not even for the most humble piece of junk.

Same goes for the broken part. I once was given a VV VIII in which that famous screw was not properly tightened at factory; all went well for - say - 80 years, until the axle gained backlash enough to slip out of the bushing, with the effects that I described earlier. There was no way to recover any singe gear of the motor, by filing, or by realigning them, and the entire motor had to be dumped and replaced with another "cannibalised" unit. If this may happen or not to your motor, or if you are concerned about the possibility, I really don't know. For sure, if I were you I wouldn't leave it permanently that way - but again, the machine is yours.

I wish you all the best for the rehaul of your gramophone - keep us updated with the progress!

[JerryVan]

I will take a good look at the crack tonight. I have a mig / tig welder but I think this is sooooo small, I might do more damage then good.

Not sure about solder ... maybe brazing ... or as you said, JB weld. I will have to give it some thought.

Thanks again !

Mike

Stay away from the mig/tig welder unless you're experienced with welding cast iron.

Brazing would be best if you really want to repair it. JB Weld might not hurt. I just don't know how much it would help. If you use it, then in the future want to try brazing it, you'll have to get every speck of the JB removed first.

I still believe that using it as-is will be strong enough and will still retain the bushing by clamping the broken bit against it.

[JeffR1]

Here's a seller with the part you need, why not offer him 15.00$ for the part you need and forget the rest.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?item=23 ... _ssn=auto9