Future of the hobby

[krkey1]

The problem is that there is plenty of good reliable stuff on the low or beginner end but as tastes develope towards more desirable phonographs, the product isn't there. The really nice stuff is getting priced too high for the average Joe. That's the sad truth.
It's like house prices. How will our kids and grandkids afford a house? They will turn their backs on the McMansions.

I had honestly never thought of it that way. There are finite amount of high quality original machines and demand is growing. Someone is bound to fake them.

[tomb]

I might be nice if someone compiled an article that tells what are the most faked machines and what to look for. As things become more valuable people want o make money with fakes. Look at the art that has been faked over the years but people know what to look for if they ae an expert. Other people get burnt. The same will be in our hobby as the machines become more valuable. There Are only so many school house vics. Tom B

[Uncle Vanya]

I reread the description given of the nature of these fake operas

"Well, there were at least twenty good fake Operas built from Amberola III and Amberola 1B mechanisms about thirty years ago. A parts supplier in California made up the reproducer and horn support assemblies, reproduction cabinets were built, and fake name plates were made. I found out later that this group of machines were the destination of a large group of Ives drawer handles (the same units used by Edison on the Opera and Idelia cabinets) which I salvaged from a 1908 vintage mansion in East Cleveland, OH, in 1982. The plates are not quite right, having been cast rather than etched, and the serial number bosses are all ground nearly flat so that "Opera" serial numbers could be assigned in place of the obvious Amberola numbers."

People can forget about my complaint of destroying original triumphs, glad for that one. They made reproduction cabinets and if they put handles on them then clearly we are talking about mahogany machines. Still the rest of my indicators would work.

My indicators would be a good way to tell if someone tried to make an oak edison opera out of a triumph cabinet and an amberola bedplate though

The horns used on fake mahogany cylinder machines are often Music Master 21" radio horn bells. Being continued production made by the same firm on the same machinery less than a decade later than the originals they are fiendishly difficult to distinguish from original units. It is easier if they retain their original finish, which was an "English Brown Mahogany" typical of the mid-1920s rather than the rather reddish color popular around 1910.

Yes, a fair number of restorable Amberola 1B and Amberola III machines were parted out in the 1980s to feed the demand for Opera Machines.

The oak reproduction Operas were also out I to reproduction cabinets. Really excellent reproduction Edison cabinets and kids were available for about a decade in the late '80s and early '90s. As I recall, the Opera cabinets in the correct quartered White Oak cost $200. In incorrect flat sawn red oak they were but $160 or $175 (I cannot quite remember which). Most builders of the fake machines seem to have chosen the cheaper cabinet, thank heavens.

[krkey1]

I reread the description given of the nature of these fake operas

"Well, there were at least twenty good fake Operas built from Amberola III and Amberola 1B mechanisms about thirty years ago. A parts supplier in California made up the reproducer and horn support assemblies, reproduction cabinets were built, and fake name plates were made. I found out later that this group of machines were the destination of a large group of Ives drawer handles (the same units used by Edison on the Opera and Idelia cabinets) which I salvaged from a 1908 vintage mansion in East Cleveland, OH, in 1982. The plates are not quite right, having been cast rather than etched, and the serial number bosses are all ground nearly flat so that "Opera" serial numbers could be assigned in place of the obvious Amberola numbers."

People can forget about my complaint of destroying original triumphs, glad for that one. They made reproduction cabinets and if they put handles on them then clearly we are talking about mahogany machines. Still the rest of my indicators would work.

My indicators would be a good way to tell if someone tried to make an oak edison opera out of a triumph cabinet and an amberola bedplate though

The horns used on fake mahogany cylinder machines are often Music Master 21" radio horn bells. Being continued production made by the same firm on the same machinery less than a decade later than the originals they are fiendishly difficult to distinguish from original units. It is easier if they retain their original finish, which was an "English Brown Mahogany" typical of the mid-1920s rather than the rather reddish color popular around 1910.

Yes, a fair number of restorable Amberola 1B and Amberola III machines were parted out in the 1980s to feed the demand for Opera Machines.

The oak reproduction Operas were also out I to reproduction cabinets. Really excellent reproduction Edison cabinets and kids were available for about a decade in the late '80s and early '90s. As I recall, the Opera cabinets in the correct quartered White Oak cost $200. In incorrect flat sawn red oak they were but $160 or $175 (I cannot quite remember which). Most builders of the fake machines seem to have chosen the cheaper cabinet, thank heavens.

Isn't that lovely. Glad there are things they had to do to the machine that simply cannot be hidden. This is why we need a guide to fakes

[Django]

Lots of input, on all sides of the issue. In the end, there does not need to be a consensus. I think that the book would be a great resource. If some do not, then that is OK too. They don't have to buy or use it if it ever exists.

We will never all agree, and that is the way it goes. I have been following this and I have made my share of comments, but I try to enjoy this hobby, and this topic has gotten a little long in the tooth for me.

It is a good topic, but sometimes we have to agree to disagree. If someone wants to get a book going, then I think that is great. This would probably be a good place to ask for input. There is a wealth of information available in this forum and it would be nice to have it consolidated and edited for accuracy, but maybe it is about time to stop debating it's value.

Peace

[CarlosV]

The problem is that there is plenty of good reliable stuff on the low or beginner end but as tastes develope towards more desirable phonographs, the product isn't there. The really nice stuff is getting priced too high for the average Joe. That's the sad truth.
It's like house prices. How will our kids and grandkids afford a house? They will turn their backs on the McMansions.

I had honestly never thought of it that way. There are finite amount of high quality original machines and demand is growing. Someone is bound to fake them.

On the subject of desirable and scarce machines, I have seen Berliner trade marks made in the 70s or 80s that are very hard to discriminate from the real ones; one that was for sale in the annual trade meeting in Germany looked original, until I looked under it to see hex nuts fixing the motor - these machines utilized square nuts. Only then the seller conceded that it was a repro, and told that it was made 30 years ago. The rest of the machine looked authentic, down to worn leather elbow, aged varnish and faded felt, which is scary.

[krkey1]

I have found this to be a very fascinating discussion and I have learned a lot. Researching the "Cecil Opera" has actually taught me a lot about the relationship between the Edison Opera, the Amberola 1b and the Amberola III.

Operas and the Amberola 1b were both introduced in 1911, the Amberola III was introduced in 1912. Clearly then they overlapped in production. And this shows from looking at the parts. They have the same gears and the same gear cover. They have the same motor.

They also had the same BEDPLATE. This is where things getting interesting. After the bedplates were manufactured they then had to be properly tooled for the perspective model machine they were to be.

An Opera needed to be drilled for a horn/reproducer mount and holes put in to properly secure a id plate after the bedplate was painted.

Amberolas did not have holes put in the bedplate for an ID plate this, went on the cabinet. However amberola did need holes for a reproducer mount. They also needed additional tapping at the bottom of the bedplate for a brass rod to help secure the amberol machine to the cabinet.

You may see the brass rod here on a amberol bedplate resting on a triump cabinet-http://forum.talkingmachine.info/downlo ... &mode=view

If you look closely you can see the brass rod helping mount the machine on a cabinet here- http://www.phonographcompany.com/data/g ... G_0300.JPG

You will notice the bedplate is notched so that the brass rod can properly rest on the bedplate. This clearly required additional drilling after the plate was made. Also notice the brass rod goes through a wedge shaped part under the bedplate which has been drilled to allow for it.

The wedges on Opera bedplates did not have a hole. I checked mine. It has not been drilled for one. This would make since as this hole would be a waste of time to drill.

So what does this mean for a " Cecil Opera". Inspect all bedplates closely, including underneath the bedplate. If it has any of the following features run!!

1,) Notch where a brass rod would have been

2.) A hole on the mounting wedge

These two things can only be explained by this bedplate being originally either an Amberola 1b or III. No Opera would have this feature.

Look very closely at that area. If you notice repair work at that area and would be in the exact area where a notch or hole would have been assume there was once a a notch or hole in that area. If you don't see the mounting wedge at all, again assume it was removed for a reason!

Now onto the top of the bedplate. Look for the following

1.) a non authentic or missing ID plate

2.) a reproduction reproducer/horn mount

3.) the serial number on the bedplate should be clearly raised. I provided a photo of mine to show what this should look like. On a "Cecil Opera" this will almost be flush with the machine as he had to grind this down in order to stamp the fraudulent id number.

Look for these five things. If you see any of them be very suspicious indeed.

[krkey1]

On the subject of desirable and scarce machines, I have seen Berliner trade marks made in the 70s or 80s that are very hard to discriminate from the real ones; one that was for sale in the annual trade meeting in Germany looked original, until I looked under it to see hex nuts fixing the motor - these machines utilized square nuts. Only then the seller conceded that it was a repro, and told that it was made 30 years ago. The rest of the machine looked authentic, down to worn leather elbow, aged varnish and faded felt, which is scary.[/quote]

Short of the seller conceding that would you have thought the machine was a repro or simply had a replacement motor mounted with the wrong nuts?

[CarlosV]

Short of the seller conceding that would you have thought the machine was a repro or simply had a replacement motor mounted with the wrong nuts?

Externally the machine was identical to an original one, but I did not disassemble it or took any measurements. I heard from other collectors in the UK that someone made these fake berliners including new motors, and the machine was so well done and aged that is was very difficult even for an experienced collector to identify it as a forgery. As for me, if it had square nuts I would not dispute its authenticity. For this reason many collectors in Europe avoid buying dog models unless they have a reliable provenance. It is a case of a skilled and knowledgeable scammer that probably calculated how much it would cost to make such copies and concluded that it would be profitable to sell them as originals. What made such undertaking easier is that these dog models have high market price and are relatively crude and primitive, and have a small part count, therefore easier to copy than, say, a Victor VI. And this was done years ago, before new techniques like 3-d printing existed. Nowadays, or in the near future, it will much cheaper to reproduce even complex parts like elaborate cabinets and large motors, spurring a whole new generation of hi-tec scammers!

[CarlosV]

By the way, another type of machine that is being widely forged is the Mikkiphone, both the Swiss and the Japanese models (which were made by distinct manufacturers). You can find them in EBay, I think they are made in India, and from the photos they look reasonably like the originals.