The new guy with a Columbia basket case

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Lucius1958
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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Lucius1958 »

Adam_G wrote: And I'm wondering what you guys think of this conversion turntable:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10-Standard-Talk ... 33963099ce

Sounds like older 78's use a larger diameter hole than newer ones. I'm liking this smaller spindle idea so that I could play newer records rather than just be limited to the older ones. Wouldn't be to hard to make a smaller to larger spindle sleeve for this in case I found an older record I wanted to play.
That turntable is meant to be used on a "Standard" Talking Machine: a Columbia client that used an oversize spindle (so that one could only play their own brand of records on it). I do not know whether this would fit on a normal Columbia spindle shaft: you would have to remove the additional spindle anyway, and possibly insert some sort of bushing to seat it properly on the shaft.

Most 78s used a 'normal' sized hole: Standard and a few others (Harmony, United, Busy Bee and Aretino, for example) used the "odd spindle" gimmick to ensure record sales. All these records could be played on a regular machine, by using different sized adaptors.

Bill

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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Adam_G »

Ok, good to know! I'll stick with the stock turntable then.

If I may ask for some more confirmation on some parts; I have the crank handle for my machine, but I'm skeptical it hasn't been modified. The wooden knob looks like it might have been added on after the original broke off or something.

And the grooves that are worn into the shaft of the crank would seem to indicate that the material is brass and not steel as I would have otherwise assumed. I mean, I'd understand if they copper plated some steel to get the chrome (or is that nickle?) plating to stick better, but I would have though a groove this deep would have also gone through a copper coating. Hence my guess that it's all brass.
Attachments
Groove worn down on shaft.
Groove worn down on shaft.
You can see threads poking through the crank, which doesn't look professional enough to be original to me
You can see threads poking through the crank, which doesn't look professional enough to be original to me
The center metal part looks like it might have just been a screw with the head filed down
The center metal part looks like it might have just been a screw with the head filed down
Adam G.

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phonogfp
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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by phonogfp »

Here's a crank from an early AH. It is indeed solid brass and nickel plated (chrome didn't appear on phonographs generally until the late 1920s/1930s).

George P.
AHcrank1.jpg
AHcrank2.jpg
AHcrank3.jpg

JerryVan
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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by JerryVan »

I believe a fairly accurate replacement knob is available from Ron Sitko at a very reasonable price.

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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Adam_G »

Got ambitious today and started tearing the machine apart. Took everything off the box so I can do some rebuilding and refinishing of the wood. The motor is also coming apart for cleaning, lubricating, and repairing anything that I find along the way.

Before I disassembled the motor, I inspected all the gears and noticed a couple of them have some wobbles. Basically some of the gears are worn-out on their shafts and the gears therefore have a wobble. I'm wondering if I can still get replacement gears or if I have to just do some modification to straighten things out. Or maybe this is normal for these gears and I shouldn't worry about it?

And once again I've uploaded the pictures in the wrong order :roll:

Here's a link to a video I put on youtube showing the gear issues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7PcbKJ ... e=youtu.be

And part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HDiBMm ... e=youtu.be
Attachments
parts cleaned so far
parts cleaned so far
Groove in spindle shaft.
Groove in spindle shaft.
Brass gear is pretty worn out anyways
Brass gear is pretty worn out anyways
Nail head is a key that when removed lets me replace brass gear? Maybe?
Nail head is a key that when removed lets me replace brass gear? Maybe?
Mostly all taken apart.
Mostly all taken apart.
Motor is out
Motor is out
Original finish was hiding under tone arm support
Original finish was hiding under tone arm support
Box with all parts removed
Box with all parts removed
Adam G.

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Lucius1958
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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Lucius1958 »

It seems that one of the gears is actually slipping on the shaft: is that what is happening? Generally, there was some method of securing gears: either a set screw of some sort, or a shrink-fit. You might have to sweat solder the gear onto the shaft, using shims to get it in the right position.

As for the others, you could certainly try bushing the bearings; plus some washers to limit end play on those shafts.

Bill

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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Adam_G »

Well it is slipping, but it's supposed to. That one gear is supposed to rotate on that shaft, but the problem is the hole in the middle of the gear has become worn an has excessive play so now it wobbles. After inspecting the shaft it goes on today I could see that the shaft was also worn down. So the shaft is now too small, and the hole in the gear is too big = wobbly gear. I'm hoping I can get a replacement gear, and if not I'll have to machine something to fix this.

The one other gear I may be able to fix with some shims, but the spindle shaft is a different story. I think I'd like to modify the bed plate and add a two small bearings to it so that it can't get worn out again like this. I'll illustrate this later on.

Some new surprises today after doing more cleaning:

- crank shaft bracket has a crack in it. The whole player was likely bumped or dropped with the crank handle in it which put too much strain on the cast bracket and cracked it. Not sure if it's a serious issue yet, so I'm thinking of just leaving it as is and worry about it when it properly breaks.

- one of the support rods was bent because it looked like the main spring barrel smashed into it at one time. I bent this back to mostly straight.

- Since the spring barrel smashed into that rod, it knocked a couple screws loose from the barrel (which are nowhere to be found). There was only 3 screws left holding the two barrels together, so I'm missing 5 screws.

- opened the two halves of the spring barrels to find that one spring looked really good, and the other not so much. The spring broke and someone tried to repair it with brazing. It kinda worked as it's still held together, but the massive blob of braze prevents to spring from coiling up evenly. And the heat from the repair has warped the spring so that it doesn't sit level at all. I'll need at least one new spring.

I'm thinking of maybe going a different route with this restoration. I think a resto-mod is in order. I'll be able to retrofit better/newer parts to the machine, and fix some of the mechanics of the motor with some tiny bearings.
Attachments
the extra wobbly gear
the extra wobbly gear
crack in crank-shaft bracket
crack in crank-shaft bracket
'repaired' spring
'repaired' spring
Here you can see how un-level the brazed spring is. It's not flush with the top surface at all.
Here you can see how un-level the brazed spring is. It's not flush with the top surface at all.
Adam G.

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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by EarlH »

That's an interesting spring repair. I used to have a machinist rivet springs for me back in the 70's when there were no replacements. Sometimes they would make a noise when they unwound, but usually the repair was ok. Ralph Thomas was the guys name and he said he could braze them, but didn't think that would hold. He would get a laugh out of that job. I wonder now how he got those two rivets in there so nicely. He would charge me $2 and a bottle of Pepsi for the job and I realize now he was giving his work away. I probably knew it at the time, but I was pretty young.

You are coming along on the old girl. It looks pretty nice!

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Lucius1958
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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Lucius1958 »

Adam_G wrote:Well it is slipping, but it's supposed to. That one gear is supposed to rotate on that shaft, but the problem is the hole in the middle of the gear has become worn an has excessive play so now it wobbles. After inspecting the shaft it goes on today I could see that the shaft was also worn down. So the shaft is now too small, and the hole in the gear is too big = wobbly gear. I'm hoping I can get a replacement gear, and if not I'll have to machine something to fix this.

The one other gear I may be able to fix with some shims, but the spindle shaft is a different story. I think I'd like to modify the bed plate and add a two small bearings to it so that it can't get worn out again like this. I'll illustrate this later on.

Some new surprises today after doing more cleaning:

- crank shaft bracket has a crack in it. The whole player was likely bumped or dropped with the crank handle in it which put too much strain on the cast bracket and cracked it. Not sure if it's a serious issue yet, so I'm thinking of just leaving it as is and worry about it when it properly breaks.

- one of the support rods was bent because it looked like the main spring barrel smashed into it at one time. I bent this back to mostly straight.

- Since the spring barrel smashed into that rod, it knocked a couple screws loose from the barrel (which are nowhere to be found). There was only 3 screws left holding the two barrels together, so I'm missing 5 screws.

- opened the two halves of the spring barrels to find that one spring looked really good, and the other not so much. The spring broke and someone tried to repair it with brazing. It kinda worked as it's still held together, but the massive blob of braze prevents to spring from coiling up evenly. And the heat from the repair has warped the spring so that it doesn't sit level at all. I'll need at least one new spring.

I'm thinking of maybe going a different route with this restoration. I think a resto-mod is in order. I'll be able to retrofit better/newer parts to the machine, and fix some of the mechanics of the motor with some tiny bearings.
Is that shaft fixed in place, or are there bearings at either end? Bearings would indicate that the shaft is meant to rotate, and therefore any gears should be fixed to the shaft. A free-rotating gear would likely have some stops on the shaft, to prevent it from moving laterally.

As for mainsprings: the conventional wisdom is that, if one spring is damaged, it is best to replace both. The difference between a 115 year old spring and a modern replacement could lead to the older spring being overstrained, causing it to break - and then you would need to replace another spring.

Bill

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Re: The new guy with a Columbia basket case

Post by Adam_G »

The shaft is stationary and the gear spins on it. There's no set-screw type stopper to prevent the gear from wandering up the shaft, though maybe there used to be?

That's some sound advice on the springs. If one's broken before, the other can't be far behind. As you say, it's best just to do them both and not have to worry about them again.
Adam G.

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