Pathé model VII - PRETTY MUCH FINISHED!

[dzavracky]

Here is an update and I also have a question.

I took out the motor to work on the speed control and I noticed one of the springs was broken! I took the spring out, cut off the broken end, and then cut a new wole. I was very happy that I succeed on the first try! I then greased the springs and put the motor back together. I had to make a little dowel for the speed control. The motor runs really well now! It will play three and ½ records on a full wind (I took the tone arm off one of my columbia machines to test this). I got the pot metal piece out of the tone arm without it breaking and it now rotates nicely. I will be rebuilding the reproducer soon. I also tried something I hadn't done before. I washed the felt! I was pretty nervous to submerge the whole platter in water, but it looks nice now!

So now to the question.

I do not think broken pot metal is fixable on the base of the tone arm. Would it be frowned upon to remove the broken potmetal entirely and make a new piece? I could make a 3d printed copy of it and then possibly make a metal one with the equipment at my school. Or maybe the 3d printed one would be good enough?

I'd appreciate any thoughts!


Cheers,

David

If I understand what you intend to do correctly, it won't show, and it will fix the problem. This is not a high-end, hotly sought machine, so I see no reason not to proceed as you plan.

Yes you will never see the fix.

[Jwb88]

I think if you can manufacture a new piece that would be stronger than the original pot metal (by whatever means possible), I say go for it. I'd much prefer to own/buy a machine that has had its weaknesses strengthened. I'm not a stickler for originality if it makes a machine more functional.

[Curt A]

I'm not sure what part is broken... could you do a close up pic of the broken part? I agree with everyone else, if you can fix it and it won't be seen, who cares? Would a 3D printed part be strong enough for a replacement? I'm sure it would be as strong as pot metal, but if it has any stress on it, maybe a metal replacement would be better...

Again, anything is better than pot metal... I hate it.

[52089]

I'm not sure what part is broken... could you do a close up pic of the broken part? I agree with everyone else, if you can fix it and it won't be seen, who cares? Would a 3D printed part be strong enough for a replacement? I'm sure it would be as strong as pot metal, but if it has any stress on it, maybe a metal replacement would be better...

Again, anything is better than pot metal... I hate it.

If you look at the first pictures, there's a photo with a red circle. That's showing the tonearm base and mount, which are supposed to be together. You can see where they "mate" at a couple of points that have broken. This is very common on these Pathé machines because the parts are pot metal and thin.

[dzavracky]

I'm not sure what part is broken... could you do a close up pic of the broken part? I agree with everyone else, if you can fix it and it won't be seen, who cares? Would a 3D printed part be strong enough for a replacement? I'm sure it would be as strong as pot metal, but if it has any stress on it, maybe a metal replacement would be better...

Again, anything is better than pot metal... I hate it.

If you look at the first pictures, there's a photo with a red circle. That's showing the tonearm base and mount, which are supposed to be together. You can see where they "mate" at a couple of points that have broken. This is very common on these Pathé machines because the parts are pot metal and thin.

YES. On the first page there is a picture of the broken piece. I can take a better picture tomorrow if needed.

David

[dzavracky]

Update:

I am almost finished with the machine, the last thing is to figure out what to do with the tone arm

Here is a video of it playing. I rebuild the reproducer tonight


David

[jimlewis1126]

I also have a Model VII, and I'm brand new to the forum, so I'm delighted I found this thread. I have high hopes that my machine will look and sound as good as yours when I'm done restoring it. I hope you don't mind my popping in here, but you're exactly the group that can give me proper guidance on restoration.... I'm happy to start a new thread if I'm overstepping the boundaries of forum etiquette (after all, this thread is about YOU, not ME).

Englishtown, NJ, flea market in the early 70s -- I think I was only about 12 years old -- went with my family to browse the bric-a-brac, and we grabbed the Pathé for $35. Now, as I'm on the cusp of retirement, I suppose it's an heirloom. I always wanted to keep it so my son would understand Groucho Marx's monumental insult, "You haven't stopped talking since I came here... You must have been vaccinated with a phonograph needle!"

It has played in my lifetime, but the tone arm and reproducer need serious work -- I should be able to handle that... with a little help. The motor still runs, although it has always needed rewinding in the middle of playing record. So, I'm guessing it always needed a new spring, but I know that trying to do that myself could be a messy and possibly dangerous fool's errand. I recently removed the motor for the first time and it's covered in grease -- possible dating back to the Harding administration if not earlier. Can anyone tell me what my next step should be, without splattering myself or cutting myself or destroying the whole motor or shattering my glasses or alienating my wife?

I'd also love to know some history on the machine, but I can't find any online resources. Yes, I've seen the book everyone has discussed, but I don't know that I'll find the date of manufacture. I have the serial number (27545), and the plate with the company info is rectangular -- a lower number than I've seen on other's and a difference shape badge. Does that mean it's an earlier model? Does anyone know the rough age? Is there a serial number index? I appreciate anyone's feedback.

Cheers!
Jim

[Curt A]

"The motor still runs, although it has always needed rewinding in the middle of playing record. So, I'm guessing it always needed a new spring, but I know that trying to do that myself could be a messy and possibly dangerous fool's errand. I recently removed the motor for the first time and it's covered in grease -- possible dating back to the Harding administration if not earlier."

If you can wind the motor and it runs, it is unlikely that you have a broken spring, unless you have a two spring motor - one could be good and one could be broken. To check it, you need to disassemble the motor to the point where you can remove the spring barrel(s) and open it/them and see if you can tell whether you actually have a broken spring... If not, the possible issue might be the hardened 100 year old grease that you mentioned, since that stuff hardens and restricts movement. If the spring is not broken, you have no real reason to try to remove it.

I recently had a similar motor issue on a machine that had never been serviced... The motor would wind up and run, but not very well. So, what I did was to use a dish pan and filled it with mineral spirits, then I wound the motor and while running I placed it in the dish pan and let it continue until it quit then wound it and repeated several times additionally. I also used a tooth brush to clean all of the exposed motor gears. This softened and removed the majority of the old grease and I re-lubed the motor with new modern grease and oil. After this cleaning, I wound it again and it now runs quiet and strong. Don't be tempted to use the lubrication suggested at the time of manufacture - vaseline mixed with graphite powder. While this will work, it was the only thing available at the time and that is why you have to deal with hardened 100 year old "grease" (vaseline). Modern grease either synthetic or not, is much more reliable.

This may work for you and it is a needed service anyway, so you have nothing to lose...

[dzavracky]

Hey Jim and welcome to the forum!

My Pathé Model VII was a fun little phonograph (I ended up selling after I fixed it). I would recommend taking the motor apart, cleaning every piece thoroughly, and re-assembling the motor. There is a picture of mine after I cleaned it on the previous page. The disassembly of the motor is pretty easy! But if this is the first motor you've taken apart.. take pictures along the way so you can keep track of how it goes back together.

I use grease soap to clean my motors.. I am sure others here use different solutions/methods. Gojo or Goop are good soaps, but get the ones without the pumice in it. I just let the gears sit in the soap water and then come back and scrub them. Try to get as much of the old grease and dirt off of them as you can. As far as the spring barrels go, you should take the springs out, clean them, and then r-egrease them. If I remember correctly, this is a 2 spring motor? It is possible that one of the springs is broken... If so, you really should replace both springs. Would Ron Sitko have a replacement for this machine?

The reproducer on these machines is easy to rebuild. Ron Sitko has the correct gaskets for it... just ask for the larger white ones. I can walk you through rebuilding it when you are ready to do it. The diaphragm on this Pathé reproducer is really big.... it is not a standard size. So just be careful with it.

I think it would be best if you started a new thread regarding your machine, and post some pictures so we can see what you are working with!

Cheers,

David

[JerryVan]

Here is an update and I also have a question.

I took out the motor to work on the speed control and I noticed one of the springs was broken! I took the spring out, cut off the broken end, and then cut a new wole. I was very happy that I succeed on the first try! I then greased the springs and put the motor back together. I had to make a little dowel for the speed control. The motor runs really well now! It will play three and ½ records on a full wind (I took the tone arm off one of my columbia machines to test this). I got the pot metal piece out of the tone arm without it breaking and it now rotates nicely. I will be rebuilding the reproducer soon. I also tried something I hadn't done before. I washed the felt! I was pretty nervous to submerge the whole platter in water, but it looks nice now!

So now to the question.

I do not think broken pot metal is fixable on the base of the tone arm. Would it be frowned upon to remove the broken potmetal entirely and make a new piece? I could make a 3d printed copy of it and then possibly make a metal one with the equipment at my school. Or maybe the 3d printed one would be good enough?

I'd appreciate any thoughts!


Cheers,

David

A 3D printed part could be an option. If you go that route, make the new one much heavier, (i.e. more robust) in all its dimensions, especially in that cross bar area that is broken on yours. Make the whole cross bar as wide as it is in the area where the vertical pin goes through it. This part most likely did not break because it's crumbling pot metal, it broke because, at some point in its life, somebody either let the arm drop down or forced it down, or maybe it bounced around in transport.