Amberolas

[phonogfp]

That's really interesting George, because your take on the subject would indicate that "fumed oak" would have vastly outsold "golden oak". I've only observed very few (maybe a dozen or so) of the darker finished oak Chippendale cabinets.

Fran

And I could be dead wrong. Certainly the facts you cite would suggest fuming to be darker than Golden Oak. And yet, at least one collector of Stickley (and other Fumed Oak furniture) on this forum will disagree when he sees this thread (I'm surprised we haven't yet heard from him on this matter!).

George P.

[fran604g]

That's what makes this controversy so interesting. I would really like to know what the "white oak" finish was supposed to look like. Could be that's what was the most common, and that could help explain "golden" being a darker finish, right?

Fran

[FloridaClay]

George,

I respect you more than you can possibly imagine, but you have it exactly backward as a conversation with any good flooring or furniture dealer will quickly convince you. Easier yet a Google search for the two terms will quickly produce dozens of websites proving the point. Or simply take a bit of raw white oak and put it in a tight container suspended over a pan of ammonia and leave it for about 24 hours to prove it to yourself and remove all doubt.

The sole purpose of ammonia fuming is to darken the wood. It is a substitute for staining. The longer the white oak (and it was white, not red) is exposed to the fumes the darker it gets. If I recall correctly, Frank Lloyd Wright was fond of using it in furniture he had made for many of his "prairie-style" homes too.

See here for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming

Or here:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/te ... px?p=47277

The process gained a lot of popularity during the Arts and Crafts period and was widely used by Gustav Stickley and others producing the dark mission style furniture we are all familiar with. (Granted there were some lighter golden oak mission pieces too.)

Golden oak in contrast used a clear or light amber shellac finish so that all the subtle variation of the natural grain and color shows through.

Notice the wood chart here:

http://www.howardproducts.com/prod-restor-a-finish.php

Or here:

http://surfpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... nished.jpg

Or here:

http://www.theoakfurnitureshop.com/wp-c ... mples1.jpg

I turned 75 Tuesday and have heard the term golden oak used countless times by perhaps hundreds of people, including my grandfather who was, among other things, a wood worker/cabinet maker. I don't know a single one of them that would not say that 23481 is not a fine example of it.

Clay

[Mr Grumpy]

I hate to jump in here, but I thought this was pretty interesting, if not telling.

Search 1 = https://www.google.ca/search?q=fumed+oa ... 66&bih=634

Search 2 = https://www.google.ca/search?q=fumed+oa ... golden+oak

Grain of salt and all that.


Oh, and Clay, sorry for the delay in getting you this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE4NbBkWtRU

[FloridaClay]

And I think I resemble that dinosaur.

Clay

[phonogfp]

Clay, I bow to your experience with wood, as I have very little beyond antique phonograph restoration.

At this point all I know on this matter is that there is a Victrola XI nearby (with its original crate in my basement) which is Fumed Oak, and it's very light colored with little contrast. This much I know, and I have posted the photos.

I no longer know what any of the oak phonograph finishes are in my collection. This is somewhat disconcerting, but despite doing a Google search of my own showing fumed oak flooring with little or no contrast, I can accept that I will never know for sure what an oak finish really is unless it's labelled, and unfortunately the vast majority of machines are not.

Vince, your Google search results for "Fumed Oak" and "Golden Oak" are real eye-openers. It would seem that any oak finish could be either fumed or golden!

Thanks again, Clay, for all the information.

George P.

[fran604g]

I find myself wondering how the inspectors that received cabinets from the various manufacturers would have inspected the various finishes. In modern times one would expect there are images in color that would be used for comparison with a certain preconcieved "tolerance" for the received goods.

How would the receiving authorities have performed this duty? With small, actual finished examples (similar to carpet "swatches")?

There must have been some standards employed by the teens, if not much earlier.

The question of variations within a specification could potentially be quite large.

Fran

[FloridaClay]

At this point all I know on this matter is that there is a Victrola XI nearby (with its original crate in my basement) which is Fumed Oak, and it's very light colored with little contrast. This much I know, and I have posted the photos.

. . . .

Vince, your Google search results for "Fumed Oak" and "Golden Oak" are real eye-openers. It would seem that any oak finish could be either fumed or golden!

. . .

George P.

George,

Let me start with the second thing and then work to the first, which really interests me a lot more.

As to the search results giving pages of images on Google, I’ve learned through experience to take them with that proverbial grain of salt. All the pictures arrayed on the page do not necessarily really depict what you are looking for. Usually the pictures at the top are fairly accurate and less and less so as you get down the page. The only way to tell for sure is to click the picture and follow it to the page where it was found. (Easy to do on Google.) For example you only have to go to the first image on the second row on the page of images that purport to show “golden oak” to find out that it really illustrates something called a “honey brown” furniture finish, not golden oak at all. The third row on the fumed page shows something that is “reclaimed beam cut French oak smoked, fumed and lyed.” And you have to know what an image shows. Is it some sort of stain made to sort of resemble golden oak on some other wood, laminate, etc.

But to the good part, it would be fascinating to hear the story of that XI, how it was found and its history, whether it was still packed and sealed from the factory when found and all that. And could you point to the thread here where the pictures are. A fantasy of mine is to wander into some out of the way place somewhere and stumble on some perfect machine still sealed up in its shipping crate like a time capsule.

Clay

[Phonolair]

It seems to me that you guys are forgetting that you can't look at the color and say its fumed or golden oak. These are two different finishing processes and by looking closely you will get a better idea which it is.
Fumed oak comes in many different colors from very light to very dark depending on how long it was exposed to the ammonia.
The grain is left open, not filled in fumed oak. Back in the day the finish was usually a wax finish. Fumed oak can be stained to achieve even more varied colors to almost black.
Golden oak is a color achieved from a stain put on the wood. The grain is then filled followed by a finish, back in the day, shellac or varnish. Sometimes wax but the grain was still filled.
Golden oak is pretty much the same color from a dull wax finish to a high gloss varnish excluding the 100 year age affects.
Fumed oak can be many different colors.
But a close look at the wood grain and finish will tell the two apart.
Now to really jump in with both feet, #23481 is fumed oak. #96451 is a stained oak with a shellac or varnished finish, you can see it flaking off at the corner and top. I'm not saying its golden oak but its not fumed.

Larry Crandell

[phonogfp]

Clay,

The photos I posted are on page 4 of this thread.

Unfortunately, the Fumed Oak XI wasn't still sealed up when I first saw it. It, along with its crate, sat in an antique mall for over a year, and I must have seen it there a dozen times. I was impressed that it wasn't just "a crate," the THE crate in which THAT machine was originally shipped. The Victrola has clearly been used, but evidently it had stayed in the same family for a long long time - and they had kept the crate with it. A general antique dealer had it, and the price was $600. I would have had to think about it at HALF that price.

Well, one day, a friend of mine (a very nice elderly fellow who is interested in antique phonographs) stopped by, and told me he had something for me out in his car. He knows I like shipping crates for phonographs. Imagine my surprise when he opened up his van and I saw that familiar crate! He said that he wanted the Victrola and he knew I'd like the crate. "Someday you'll have to come up and get the Victrola."

It appears to have had a waxed finish on the interior, but at one time has had a clear finish of some sort overcoated on the outside only. There's definitely a shine to the exterior that is not present on the interior surfaces. I suspect this happened to a great many Fumed Oak pieces.

Larry, that's always been my understanding too. A "Fumed Oak" cabinet with a hard glossy finish has either been overcoated, or it isn't Fumed Oak. A dull sheen has been (to me anyway) a sign of a Fumed Oak cabinet, but as you state (and as my friend's example suggests), people can brush on a finish at any point to confuse matters.

George P.