"23481=Golden Oak for sure
The other appears to be fumed."
Clay
For whatever it's worth... The#23481 sample is identical to the wood on my "Golden Oak" Amberola 50, which is what I would expect to see for a "Golden Oak" Cabinet. As Clay had mentioned, The other looked "Fumed" which is also what I would expect a "Fumed" cabinet to look like.
My goodness George, I do not know how I ever missed your page 4 response to one of my earlier messages. That's what I get for clicking on a link in an email alert about an active thread and thus going to the latest post and not going back to make sure I hadn't missed anything important just above it! I missed the whole top part of that page! As it turns out, I am now not sure we really disagree all that much!
I quite agree that the finishes on the 2 machines you pictured there are as you identify them. And I had quite forgotten that nice original chart on page 55 of the Victor Data Book, which is right on with what I understand fumed and golden to usually be in that era. What we are seeing in the golden oak finish machine you picture is golden oak a century later! Shellac can darken a great deal over that amount of time, especially if storage conditions were not good, and the darkening is more obvious on a lighter finish than on a finish that was darker to begin with. I see this often in aged golden oak. And it is the same process that turns what was a stunning piano finish mahogany into an ugly dark coating that can totally obscure the beauty of the grain and makes people wonder why anybody ever wanted that finish back in the day.
You may remember another thread where I talked about a cabinet I had picked up at a local auction. You and some others helped me correctly identify it as one of The Talking Machine Company's "Cabinet That Matches" and a catalog from that company graciously provided to me by Jerry narrowed it down to the one of those that was for a Vic II "humpback" and it was offered ONLY in golden oak. When I got it, the outermost shellac was tar black until I took to it with 0000 steel wool and denatured alcohol. The inside of the front door, more protected, is aged to a color about one shade darker than the golden oak in the Data Book chart, but had not gotten as dark as your friends golden oak XVI.
Another difference is that fuming seems to impart a slightly grayish undertone. I see that in the machine you pictured and I see it in my fumed C19. The golden oak, even when aged, has an amber tone.
Well enough for tonight.
Clay
P.S. Edits mostly to fix some of my infamous typos.
Last edited by FloridaClay on Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Arthur W. J. G. Ord-Hume's Laws of Collecting
1. Space will expand to accommodate an infinite number of possessions, regardless of their size.
2. Shortage of finance, however dire, will never prevent the acquisition of a desired object, however improbable its cost.
FloridaClay wrote:
...fuming seems to impart a slightly grayish undertone. I see that in the machine you pictured and I see it in my fumed C19. The golden oak, even when aged, has an amber tone.
Something just dawned on me. Many of us have the perfect model of how golden oak darkens with aging shellac and what it originally looked like. There is a place where the original finish is about as well preserved as it is possible for it to be. It is the area beneath the back bracket of golden oak outside horn machines whose back brackets have been left in place over the years. The difference can be really dramatic. Here it is on my Vic III, which has turned a chocolate brown since 1911 or so. (Top pic with flash, lower one in room light. The latter is a bit fuzzy because of low light, but renders the actual color much better.)
Clay
Attachments
Last edited by FloridaClay on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Arthur W. J. G. Ord-Hume's Laws of Collecting
1. Space will expand to accommodate an infinite number of possessions, regardless of their size.
2. Shortage of finance, however dire, will never prevent the acquisition of a desired object, however improbable its cost.
Very interesting, Clay! I searched through my Edison cylinder Phonograph catalogs earlier hoping for a description of the model A cabinet finish, but didn't find anything useful.
The amber tone shown under the tonearm is what I would associate with golden oak, and frankly, that was what I was seeing with the finish of #23481.
The darkening of the original finish of your Victor is much greater than I would have imagined!
Fran
Last edited by fran604g on Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Francis; "i" for him, "e" for her
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.
I'm sticking to my guns that 23481 started out as golden oak. Among other things there is none of that tell-tale gray undertone imparted by the ammonia fumes. No way is it fumed. However it looks to have been cleaned within an inch of its life at some point. I don't think I've ever seen one anywhere nearly that light.
Clay
Arthur W. J. G. Ord-Hume's Laws of Collecting
1. Space will expand to accommodate an infinite number of possessions, regardless of their size.
2. Shortage of finance, however dire, will never prevent the acquisition of a desired object, however improbable its cost.
After seeing the labeled finishes, I have little doubt to my initial belief that 23481 is golden oak, and 96451 is fumed oak. The similarities to the above image are indisputable (in my mind). Especially the grain structure of the record storage compartment door that I show in my earlier images, and the above depicted fumed oak sample.
I'll snap a picture of the inside of the lid showing the original finish and decal tomorrow.
Fran
Last edited by fran604g on Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Francis; "i" for him, "e" for her
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.
FloridaClay wrote:I'm sticking to my guns that 23481 started out as golden oak. Among other things there is none of that tell-tale gray undertone imparted by the ammonia fumes. No way is it fumed. However it looks to have been cleaned within an inch of its life at some point. I don't think I've ever seen one anywhere nearly that light.
Clay
First, my sincere apologies to Gramtastic for my hijacking his post about Amberola grille cloth! It's amazing how a simple question can get so distorted.
Clay, here is a shot of the inside of both lids next to each other.
Francis; "i" for him, "e" for her
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.
Thanks for the pics. Yep, 23481 clearly golden. 96451 fumed. Classic examples.
Wondering if some of the other pictures of 23481 showing an extreme lightness could have been due to light conditions where the pics were made??
Clay
Arthur W. J. G. Ord-Hume's Laws of Collecting
1. Space will expand to accommodate an infinite number of possessions, regardless of their size.
2. Shortage of finance, however dire, will never prevent the acquisition of a desired object, however improbable its cost.
It's very possible. The flash on my camera blows out the exposure with tight shots. It's a balancing act between too dark and too light sometimes, and I try to get the right exposure in post editing.
If you look at the upper righthand corner of the trim piece picture, the color of 23481 is better represented than the really bright forward most section, you can see the same "orange-looking" shade more pronounced in the other photos, I think.
Fran
Francis; "i" for him, "e" for her
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.
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