The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

The recent thread on the Tech section about the Model Q slowing down, and subsequent segue into comparing a model Q to a triumph and my mention of my triumph slowing down got me to thinking I would take another look at it.

I haven't futzed with this machine for several years. I took the lid off, wound it up and set the motor in motion and it spun right up and ran quiet and smooth. I placed a BA cylinder on the mandrel, and lowered the repro at the beginning and it bogged down to a complete stop. I removed the cylinder and lowered the repro with the motor running and it keep running happy as a clam for the entire feed screw length. Put the cylinder back on and bog-er-roonie.

I removed the horn, no change. I then lifted the motor deck to take a look-sie under the hood and noticed that the carriage, when in the "play" position was "floating" off the carriage glide surface (where the lift lever rests when not in the play position). I lowered the deck, started the motor,lowered the repro on a cylinder (it stopped), then I exerted a little upward pressure on the halfnut arm to relieve some pressure on the feed screw and the motor started up (half nut still engaged). I noticed a set screw that adjusted the downward pressure of the half nut (first picture, screw halfway between half nut and carriage rod) and turned it to relieve the pressure and she started playing. At about 3 minutes it bogged way down and was just barely turning. I relieved more pressure until it played again. Then I started the cylinder over again and the half nut was skipping a bit, so I added a little pressure back in and it played all the way through.

I tried another cylinder which turned out to be a little warped (as BA's can become) and it appeared that the repro float was being driven into the carraige and stopping the rotation. I tried a different repro and things worked better.

So, after all the rambling, there are a couple of items here:

1 - Half nut/feed screw pressure adjustment. It appears that the pressure increases towards the end of the record suggesting that the carriage rod and feed screw are not parallel. Or, it is something else?

Any ideas here folks? With as powerful as the Triton motor is, I would not expect that there would be this much sensitivity to a very very small difference in half nut pressure on the feed screw.

2 - The last two pictures are of the original repro. The needle bar and weight are different from the other 4 minute repros I have. The other 2 and 4 minute repro's I looked at (about 4, and I didn't look at all of them) have a short needle bar that does NOT protrude past the linkage hole. The needle bar is held on with a tiny screw and nut.

I am thinking that this may be a hacked/cobbled together repro that is not right. Also, does the presence of dust around the needle bar and on the bed plate suggest there is damage occurring to my cylinders, or just typical dirt from the old cylinders?

I included a couple of pictures of the repro in question.

In summary, It plays through, though it is not "strong" in my opinion (the battery was dead in my laser tach so I was not able to determine how much the mandrel slowed down).

So lets get the discussion going here and see who can claim the title "CMG" Cylinder Motor God in this forum.

The pressure is important- just use enough to keep it in good contact, not enough to raise the arm when at rest. A dirty screw can also slow the motor, or a half nut that isn't perfectly aligned.

Ok, I'll bite. I want the "Cylinder Motor God" badge in platinum finish, though. Gold is too common.

A few preliminary checks before we start futzing with other things:

1. Check the governor shaft. Make sure that it has a little Left-Right wiggle room between the ends bearings...about ½ the thickness of a sheet of paper. If it is too tight.....power lost.

2. I see you have a thick brown cow leather drive belt. These are power stealers. Install a strong, soft, and stretchy kangaroo leather belt (phonophan.com sells them for a few dollars...well worth the investment).

3. Oil all motor bearings, grease all gears. Oil the friction leather on the governor. If there is varnish on the friction disc, take it off with a Q-tip dipped in lacquer thinner.

NOW, onto the work at hand. You have what looks like a Triumph Model D, with 2/4 minute gearing.

You will want to check your mandrel shaft Left-Right play. If the mandrel is too tight between the left pintle bearing, and the brass support bearing, it will act loagy. Again.... ½ thickness of a sheet of paper side-to-side play.

The feedscrew should be lubricated on its left and right edges. Especially around the "L" retainer tab on the right. It should not be rubbing on the feedscrew tube at all, or exerting any excess friction on it. The "sun" and "planetary" gears in the 2/4 disc should have grease on them, and the planetary gear shaft oiled (there is a small oiling hole accessible from the inside when it is disassembled.

I see that your machine has a new brass support bearing installed .....obviously someone in the recent past has removed the swollen pot metal support bearing and replaced it. There are many ways of doing this. By my observation, there is the RIGHT WAY, and the WRONG WAY to replace these. And, there are varying quality replacement parts available for this application. Notice that there is a securing screw on the front face of the support bearing boss. It is highly likely that this screw is simply pressing against the bearing to hold it in position. 90% of the time when this is the case, it will affect the alignment of the mandrel shaft. The maladjustment is so microscopically slight, but it does make a difference. My corrective measure: remove bearing, and drill a small divot in the bearing for the screw to GENTLY hold the bearing in the proper lateral position. One test to see if this would improve the condition would be to loosen the screw, and try playing a record. If the condition resolves, then this is the culprit. Also, make sure that the brass bearing is oiled....the new ones are solid brass....not oil-lite permeable bearings.

One thing often overlooked is the feedscrew itself. Although it may have 100 threads per inch (I think), the threads are deeply cut......there could be petrified grease down in there. Here's the fix: wet the entire surface with a line of oil......then while running in 2-minute (faster) mode, starting at the Left.......use the tip of a razor blade to clean all the gunk and gunge out of the threading...all the way to the end of the threading. Dab off all grease and surfaced caked schmeck with a tissue, then repeat.

Now to address the half-nut increasing pressure against the feedscrew during play. This is usually because the mandrel support bearing wasn't drilled on center. Loosen the set screw that holds the bearing in position, and rotate the bearing 180* degrees and see if the condition is resolved. If so, you can choose to leave it as is, or replace the bearing with a good one.

It is also possible that someone (excuse my french.....some IDIOT) filed down the cast iron straight edge...where the front of the carriage rides across the record. I've seen it ALL. The only way to have this corrected is by a machine shop with a Bridgeport milling machine (or CNC mill) and having them re-level the surface so that it is perfectly parallel with the carriage rod. It ain't a fun job.

Aside from getting it Christened, or inviting a Mohel over for a ceremony, this is all the help I can offer. Hope it works out for you.

Best, Wyatt

Mica Monster covered it very well. Based on your description it sounds to me like most of the problem is with striking the right balance on that half nut and feedscrew and makeing sure that feedscrew is clean, not gummed up. That carriage SHOULD NOT float above the straight edge. It should rest on it when the mechanism is engaged but just barely.

Your reproducer probably also is the victim of an poor quality or incomplete rebuild at some point, linkage too short, too long etcetera. It may well work okay with a perfectly round blue amberol but not function with a warped BA as a result.

A Triumph should play 6-7 two min records, 3-4 four min records without slowing down, slightly more with a C, H, O reproducer, slightly less with the diamond B which creates a little more drag.

Figure this out and you can park that Q for good!

Impressive MM. A copy is going into my "when it happens, do this" file.

Now where did I put that spare platinum?

Clay

Brad, check out that reproducer. Observe the limit pin when you are playing a cylinder. The pin should be approximately centered vertically in the loop. Also, be sure that the pin is not hitting on the edge of the carriage, preventing full vertical movement of the weight. You may also have a needle bar link that is the wrong length causing the weight to bottom out on the reproducer body or the carriage. Not only will this cause speed problems, it will also damage cylinders and the sapphire. If you have a damaged wax Amberol you can do a test with it and any damage will become obvious in a few seconds. If you haven't done so, you need to try other reproducers to eliminate that as a cause.
Another question: how does it work with 2 minute cylinders and a model C? My observation with my Triumph is that any problems will become more apparent with 2 minute cylinders because the feed screw is operating at a 1:1 ratio.

Jim

Sorry, I missed the line in your original post where you said you tried another reproducer.

Jim

This is what your Model H should look like. Note the "V" guard and the tail on the stylus bar. These are missing from yours. Although it may not cause the problems you are experiencing, there could be other issues with the reproducer as I described above.

Jim

Haven't had time to read all of the above so, forgive me if it's been covered. I see you have the "no end gate" version with a new bronze bushing to replace the troublesome pot-metal variety. When you state that the half-nut pressure increases near the end of the recording it makes me question whether the new bushing bore runs eccentric to its outer diameter. In other words, does the new bushing have its hole off-center and thereby lifting the mandrel shaft higher and increasing half nut pressure? You could try loosening the locking screw and rotating the bushing 90 degrees. This may tend to lower the mandrel shaft and relieve pressure. It may also move your mandrel either towards or away from you as you stand at the front of the machine. Not as big a deal as being too high but may cause a little half-nut misalignment which shouldn't be too severe a problem. Anyway, do a little experimenting here.

Thanks guys,

WRT MicaMonsters suggestions: I was one the removed the swollen pot metal sleeve and replaced with what is shown. I got the replacement sleeve from Duane at Wyatts several years ago. It has a groove that runs the length of the side that the set screw is set in.

I checked the mandrel shaft for free play and had about half a sheet of paper so I am good there. I tried rotating the replacement sleeve to 90, 180, and 270 degrees from where I had it and found little different at 90 and 270, but it was worse at 180. I tried rotating the carriage rod by 180 degrees to see if possibly that was bent. No change. So, the bore is off center, however, it was in it's optimum position by luck.

I tried a 2 minute cylinder and behavior was the same.

I turned my attention to the under carriage. After running the tension out of the springs, I checked side to side play of the governor assembly and it has play and spins freely.

I then went and checked all the other gear/shaft assemblies and found 1 that did NOT have any side to side play (picture below). I re-adjusted that one to introduce some side to side play and things got much better!

On a full wind, I played a 2 minute cylinder 6 times and a 4 minute cylinder once with no slow down whatsoever. I put a new battery in my laser tach and noticed that the speed slowed by about 2 rpm when I engaged the repro, however, the speed did NOT slow during the entire playback and overall only slowed down about 1 RPM from the start of the first cylinder playback to the end of the 7th playback!

I didn't even bother to see how much I could play back on a single wind, going from less than one play to 15 minutes solved my problem.

I ordered some kangaroo hide from Phonophan today to replace the belt. I don't believe I need to replace the sleeve.

As for the repro, thank you Jim for the pictures and the advice. Yes, I need to do something about that repro, the linkage is not correct. Does anyone know the proper length, or which of the various parts vendors sell the best ones?

Thanks everyone for the help. I feel like I have a new cylinder machine to play with now!

Wyatt, with the concurrence of the board, I hereby confer on you the degree of Cylinder Motor God. You may proudly add "CMG" to your title!

Congrats, Brad. Enjoy! And, I second the award to Wyatt. I've been doing this stuff for over 40 years and he taught me some things I hadn't thought of. I am currently working on a complete rebuild of my Triumph including spring replacement. I have taken lots of pictures and will post my adventures when I'm done.

BTW: about the reproducer link; I'll try to post info in a day or so. You can make the links yourself. If the limit pin is hitting the underside of the carriage, the pin may be too long, not screwed in completely or the hinge block stud could be bent which could push the weight foreword.

Jim