Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Discussions on Records, Recording, & Artists
edisonplayer
Victor IV
Posts: 1559
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:33 pm

Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by edisonplayer »

At what number did Columbia go from the Flag to the black Viva-Tonal type label?edisonplayer

User avatar
Cody K
Victor III
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:03 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by Cody K »

I'm thinking that this will be a similar situation to the one in the thread in the past few days about Victor's switch from batwing to scroll. Likely the Columbia labels were also phased in, rather than changing abruptly at a particular number. I could be proven wrong, though.

Though it doesn't answer your question, and you may have already seen it, this link gives rough dates by year, anyway: http://majesticrecord.com/labelscolumbia.htm
"Gosh darn a Billiken anyhow."- Uncle Josh Weathersby

User avatar
Wolfe
Victor V
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by Wolfe »

The Flags went out in early summer, 1925. But I would also assume that existing label stock was used up during the transition.

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor VI
Posts: 3984
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by gramophone-georg »

Cody K wrote:I'm thinking that this will be a similar situation to the one in the thread in the past few days about Victor's switch from batwing to scroll. Likely the Columbia labels were also phased in, rather than changing abruptly at a particular number. I could be proven wrong, though.

Though it doesn't answer your question, and you may have already seen it, this link gives rough dates by year, anyway: http://majesticrecord.com/labelscolumbia.htm
Right, and I think what applies in the Victor thread will also apply here- and that is that the highest number flag label would be the real break rather than the lowest number black label due to recordings that were in the catalogs for a very long time.

Case in point:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERT-WILLIAMS-W ... Sw37tWAX4E

This is a Columbia A series recording that's likely pre WW1, yet here it is not only on a black label- but on a black label on royal blue shellac! Black label/ blue shellac indicates a 1932 pressing, so it looks like this one was in the catalog for 15 or 20 years. This really isn't a re- issue, either... so it's a real rarity!

BUT- the point is that you couldn't look at this and determine therefore that Royal Blue pressings started with A2849 any more than you could say the black label started there, either.

Make sense?
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
Wolfe
Victor V
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by Wolfe »

The highest numbered Flag from what factory ?

Doesn't seem likely that a memo went out all over that said Catalog # such and such - Ed Pickle's Orchestra "Violets and Temptation Rag " will be the last Flag label. Different plants has their existing quantity of label old and new label stock.

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor VI
Posts: 3984
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by gramophone-georg »

Wolfe wrote:The highest numbered Flag from what factory ?

Doesn't seem likely that a memo went out all over that said Catalog # such and such - Ed Pickle's Orchestra "Violets and Temptation Rag " will be the last Flag label. Different plants has their existing quantity of label old and new label stock.
Does it really matter?

The highest number flag label is the highest number flag label.
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
Wolfe
Victor V
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by Wolfe »

Of course it matters.

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor VI
Posts: 3984
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by gramophone-georg »

Wolfe wrote:Of course it matters.
Explain. Are you saying that if one Columbia factory used Flag labels later than another Columbia factory it's not really the latest Columbia flag label?

This makes no sense.
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
Cody K
Victor III
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:03 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by Cody K »

I think maybe what Wolfe is implying is that, assuming that there was no record that went out with the explicit directive that this was to be the last release with a flag label, and assuming the various factories used their flag labels until they ran out of stock, there is no definitive last release with a flag label. Each factory would most likely have put out a differently numbered "last" flag, and then switched the same title over to the Viva-Tonal label. So while it might be possible (with enough time, resources, and determination!) to poll all existing copies of a given record for the highest number with a flag label, all we'd learn is when a given factory -- if we knew for sure which one -- made the switchover. Even that might be hazy, unless we had access to the logs showing dates of actual pressings.

It must have been a more gradual process, where different copies of the same record would have left different factories with either version of the label, at least over a period of weeks, maybe months.

[My apologies to Wolfe, if this isn't what he was suggesting!]
"Gosh darn a Billiken anyhow."- Uncle Josh Weathersby

User avatar
Wolfe
Victor V
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Re: Columbia's switch from Flag to Viva-Tonal type label

Post by Wolfe »

You got it right, Cody K.

Post Reply