"Expert" Collectors

[startgroove]

I think that buyer should have had the sense to get the opinion of a second and third expert, especially after getting proof of the mistake the expert made the first time. In addition, the time to authenticate something is before buying it, not after. There are collectors all over the country who will gladly give their opinion for another collector.
Related to that is the collector critic. Lori and I have experienced the negative collector, who at best makes no compliments at all, and at worst brings attention to flaws or other wrong details about pieces in our collection, usually things we are already aware of. After that, we try to avoid them, since we believe they have the wrong idea of what our collecting is about.
Most collectors love it when a peer makes a positive statement about the collection they have so painstakingly accumulated. Personally, I've never seen a machine, or a collection, that I didn't enjoy looking at. And, it makes me feel good to let the owner know how much I enjoyed the viewing.

[Steve]

On the negative side, I bought machines from dealers that came with obviously missing parts or have been tampered with. What did I do? gave the dealer the benefit of doubt, and negotiated, or tried to, a mutually agreeable price reduction, but put the seller's name in my caveat emptor list.

I've had many very similar experiences to Carlos but with one notable exception of a US dealer who flatly refused to accept he was wrong or that he could do much to rectify the issue, even from a monetary perspective (even when I proved my case to him with photographs), I've negotiated a mutually agreeable price reduction in most instances.

There are as many "expert" dealers out there as there are "expert" collectors. The fact remains that a lot of people simply make mistakes, misjudgements (including the wrath of collectors) or stubbornly refuse to correct their mistakes or let their perceived reputations be questioned. You could say we are all human after all!

If someone asks me what I think about something they've purchased I will give them my honest appraisal if they're questioning it. I don't see merit in disguising the truth just because someone has already handed money over. All that potentially achieves is to perpetuate the notion that something incorrect is the opposite.

I've encountered many dealers who claim things like "I didn't see that" with a fault that is glaringly obvious to me. What are we to make of that? I could write a book on the subject.

[Valecnik]

If I'm going to spend thousands of my hard earned bucks on a machine, it's up to me to do the due diligence and make sure I'm happy with the terms of sale, which in Raphael's case are "money back of not satisfied". I would assume any normal person would translate that as "money back if not satisfied and had a chance to inspect", not "I've had it for a few months and a friend told me it was too shiny."

The first case with the Vic 6 is the most disturbing. How an "expert" could not tell a repro Vic VI case, even a very well done one, from a well restored machine is beyond me.

Also, the level of restoration is not important as long as the seller represents the item honestly.

I tend to follow the example others have mentioned. If someone wants advice on whether an item is "original or redone" I will give it pre-sale. Post sale I'd only normally comment that the purchaser had gotten a nice, great, machine, deal whatever. Okay maybe I bite my tongue and lie a bit from time to time but why on earth would someone express a negative opinion on an item just to deflate the buyers balloon.

[Raphael]

I agree with the posts about miserable people wanting to spread their unhappiness. In a previous lifetime I was a hands-on landlord with (at times) 5 or more apartment buildings and over 200 tenants. I worked my butt off and spent every possible dollar to improve the buildings and make them the best possible places for people to live. After selling out in 2005 and having time to reflect on the experience, one of my observations was how disruptive unhappy people could be to my operations. Not only were they always in my face about every possible (real or imagined) problem, they would go around at night telling the other tenants how the landlord was taking advantage of them and in the end was going to confiscate their security deposits. 25 years of that nonsense was enough for me.

As for the specifics of the current case, two weeks ago my customer told me in an email how delighted he was with the Victor VI. That led to the next sale to him, the D. It makes no sense for me to ship a machine that does not work, yet he now accuses me of doing so, because in his words "Given the substantial packaging, the phonograph was shipped in this condition". To begin with, this is not true, and given my money-back guarantee there is no sense in falsely accusing me and also taking issue with a heretofore perfectly satisfactory VI. Again, I am sure it is the miserable "expert" lurking in the background.

The funny thing is, on both sales, my profit margins were so thin to be almost negligible. My current inventory is starting to overwhelm me (and especially my wife) and I have been quite eager to move out stuff that has been sitting for a while. But if he returns the D, I'll get it fixed and do much better with it next time around, I am sure.

And by the way, this will be my first return of 2015. The money-back guarantee, for me, is a no-brainer because it gives first-time buyers confidence and quite often leads to repeat sales.

Raphael

[Phono-Phan]

I would have to agree with the posts on this issue. I have been burned a few times in the past 30 plus years on phonographs. But, not once, did I blame the seller. I have put the responsibility on myself. I believe it is up to the buyer to get educated and be happy with the purchase, whatever it is. I just feel for those buying the supposed "Very Rare" phonographs listed on Ebay that are Crap-O-Phones. Maybe the buyers of these machines just want the look of nostalgia and don't want to put out too much.

[billybob62]

"If you Like It and you're Happy,
Clap your hands".

[Curt A]

Generally, I agree that the buyer is responsible for doing his homework... That being said, I had an experience with a well known "collector/dealer" that I think is the other way around. When I first got interested in cylinder machines, I overpaid for an Edison Standard D model that I thought was a nice 2-4 minute machine. I never complained about paying probably twice as much as it was worth, and I really wanted to upgrade the machine, so I purchased a cygnet horn for $450 on eBay, a horn crane and ended up with over $1,000 in it. Several years later, I decided to sell it back to the same guy I bought it from and he began to pick it apart... This was wrong, that was wrong and it even had a knurled spark plug nut for a speed change knob. The funny thing was, I got it like this from him and I wasn't aware of what was incorrect, but he obviously knew that the knurled knob came from a spark plug. He downplayed it to the point that I let him have it for what I paid him originally and lost money on the deal just to get rid of it. Later, I found out that he resold it to some new collector for much more than he paid me and then had the absolute gaul to accuse me of switching out the lid with another of his machines, because "he would never have sold it to me with that D lid that had the 2-4 minute instruction sheet on the inside". This was one of the selling points he harped on that made this machine so expensive when he sold it to me... So, there are definitely plenty of greedy people in all areas of collecting both buying and selling... I trusted this guy because he was knowledgeable, a long time collector and has a huge collection with some of his machines pictured in recent books.

[Phonolair]

Over many years of collecting phonographs I have found that having knowledge of what you are buying or selling is key. With out this knowledge before the transaction, issues can arise.

But when Rapheal has 100% refund policy than the buyer should have no hard feeling over a purchase, no matter what he feels the issues are.

I have also found that when a phonograph expert is telling you what a expert they are, it's probably best to take it with a grain of salt.

Regards, Larry Crandell

[Steve]

One thing I know with some certainty from my own personal experience is that the only judgement I can truly trust is my own. Caveat emptor applies to all phonograph / gramophone purchases. A recent experience has taught me this again. Even widely acknowledged "experts" can get it wrong. I have numerous examples of this to quote from now, it's getting more than a little tiresome.

So I agree with comments above that say you have to do your homework and know what you are buying. Trust no one who claims to be an expert. This is easier if you are buying face to face. However we rely on others knowledge and truthfulness when buying "blind" over the web. Photographs do not reveal everything you might need to see before making a decision. Some vendors are not willing to show more pictures than they initially provide. What do you do then? Rely on their judgements? It annoys me when this happens and you receive something obviously wrong that wasn't obvious from THEIR choice of pictures. They then say, "Oh I didn't notice that!" or something equally lame. By this time it's already too late.

Consider this also: if being a "dealer" makes you some kind of an expert whilst being a collector makes you a lesser "expert" as your relationship might dictate that you have to trust the dealer's word and accept what they give you in reply to your complaint, how do you stand if one day you decide as a collector to sell your entire collection? If you have a large collection it might take a long time and involve many transactions. You BECOME a dealer by implication. So does this mean you've also become an "expert" over night?

[FloridaClay]

What I do when any seller won't send pictures needed for an accurate assessment is simple. I don't buy.

Clay