PayPal Pitfalls

[Raphael]

Everybody knows how convenient PayPal is; to their credit they have developed a fine system. However, they have a way of changing their rules as they go, without really letting you know until there is a problem.

As an example, the category "Item Not As Described" can result in a windfall for unscrupulous buyers. They have 6 months, or more, to request a refund based upon this claim. The time limit is determined by the rules in the country you are shipping to, and the seller's Terms & Conditions are meaningless and irrelevant.

Then, you have the "Trackable, Delivery Signature Required" situation. Many times with USPS the tracking is wrong. Here is an example, an item that was delivered last week in Mexico to my customer, yet now shows up as only leaving the U.S. yesterday:

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmA ... 56918499US

I know it was delivered because positive feedback was left on eBay. I have had several instances in the past year where the tracking never went past our borders, no proof of delivery, etc., and I had to fight with PayPal to get the money released. I have stopped shipping to Russia for this reason.

I've always been open-minded and cooperative with international sales, having been involved one way or another since the mid-1970's. But it seems that PayPal totally discriminates in favor of the buyer, regardless of the circumstances.

Raphael

[MidMich]

I have been on Ebay /PayPal for many years 5800+ transactions. You have to take most of the "tracking" with a grain of salt. USPS is still the worst. I have had many items delivered, and they do not show as delivered for days. I got some parts in last month and I just got a email a couple of days ago that they where just shipped?
Jeff

[CharliePhono]

<deleted>

[MidMich]

USPS and some of the shippers also use shipping hubs. So sometime the tracking will not make sense. I have had twice now, orders coming from NYC and going to Michigan wind up taking the scenic route and passing trough hubs in Florida on their way here. One mailman told me that if a hub gets backlogged or overloaded, they will divert to another. Then he laughed and said and they do screw up some times.
Jeff

[Raphael]

My post was not so much about USPS, which I have always tried to avoid, but how their unreliable tracking dovetails with PayPal's cavalier attitude that totally favors buyers.

Raphael

[MidMich]

Raphael
I have had very good luck with Paypal in the USA. Once you sell outside the USA, things can change fast. One of the items that I got in a Norton motorcycle dealer buy out was a stack of OEM sale brochures from the 60's , Only a couple from 1969. They would sell for less then $20 on Ebay. Then when I listed a 69, A gentleman from Brazil won and purchased one for $13.00. He received it and promptly file a fraud complaint against me. His argument was he only had to bid $13.00 and it was in mint condition so it had to be fake. I offered paid return postage and refund his money. No, EBay/ PayPal awarded him a full refund and he kept the brochure. He even had a history of poor feedback and they still sided with him. I then found out the 69 was rare and the rest all sold for over $100 each. I know several sellers who refuse to sell outside the USA because of PayPal's policies.
And yes the policies seem like they are constantly changing, and yes they seem to more and more favoring the buyer.
Tracking that is behind is bad enough. But wait until the tracking shows that it was delivered and it wasn't. This has happened a couple of times with UPS. Not sure way, but both showed up the next day at my door? It always happened after it was too late to call them and you have to worry about it for the night.
Jeff

[stevel]

Chargebacks can happen with any unscrupulous buyer.
If you're dealing one enthusiast to another use PayPals friends and family option.
There's no buyer protection with it so the buyer needs to trust the seller.
Steve

[HisMastersVoice]

Raphael
I have had very good luck with Paypal in the USA. Once you sell outside the USA, things can change fast. One of the items that I got in a Norton motorcycle dealer buy out was a stack of OEM sale brochures from the 60's , Only a couple from 1969. They would sell for less then $20 on Ebay. Then when I listed a 69, A gentleman from Brazil won and purchased one for $13.00. He received it and promptly file a fraud complaint against me. His argument was he only had to bid $13.00 and it was in mint condition so it had to be fake. I offered paid return postage and refund his money. No, EBay/ PayPal awarded him a full refund and he kept the brochure. He even had a history of poor feedback and they still sided with him. I then found out the 69 was rare and the rest all sold for over $100 each. I know several sellers who refuse to sell outside the USA because of PayPal's policies.
And yes the policies seem like they are constantly changing, and yes they seem to more and more favoring the buyer.
Tracking that is behind is bad enough. But wait until the tracking shows that it was delivered and it wasn't. This has happened a couple of times with UPS. Not sure way, but both showed up the next day at my door? It always happened after it was too late to call them and you have to worry about it for the night.
Jeff

Funny, same thing happened to me with a NOS 1960s OEM Cadillac owner's manual which I had purchased in a lot from the estate of a long-time car collector. The buyer filed a case approximately 4 months later stating that it was a reproduction (it was not). The money was taken from my account and the buyer kept the manual. I think the time allowed for cases to be opened is far too long, it just begs for unscrupulous buyers to try and get something for free long after the fact.

[MidMich]

I totally agree. Once they receive the item and post positive feedback, it should be over. And only if they complain should the review take place and only in a timely manor.
Jeff

[gramophone-georg]

Raphael
I have had very good luck with Paypal in the USA. Once you sell outside the USA, things can change fast. One of the items that I got in a Norton motorcycle dealer buy out was a stack of OEM sale brochures from the 60's , Only a couple from 1969. They would sell for less then $20 on Ebay. Then when I listed a 69, A gentleman from Brazil won and purchased one for $13.00. He received it and promptly file a fraud complaint against me. His argument was he only had to bid $13.00 and it was in mint condition so it had to be fake. I offered paid return postage and refund his money. No, EBay/ PayPal awarded him a full refund and he kept the brochure. He even had a history of poor feedback and they still sided with him. I then found out the 69 was rare and the rest all sold for over $100 each. I know several sellers who refuse to sell outside the USA because of PayPal's policies.
And yes the policies seem like they are constantly changing, and yes they seem to more and more favoring the buyer.
Tracking that is behind is bad enough. But wait until the tracking shows that it was delivered and it wasn't. This has happened a couple of times with UPS. Not sure way, but both showed up the next day at my door? It always happened after it was too late to call them and you have to worry about it for the night.
Jeff

Funny, same thing happened to me with a NOS 1960s OEM Cadillac owner's manual which I had purchased in a lot from the estate of a long-time car collector. The buyer filed a case approximately 4 months later stating that it was a reproduction (it was not). The money was taken from my account and the buyer kept the manual. I think the time allowed for cases to be opened is far too long, it just begs for unscrupulous buyers to try and get something for free long after the fact.

The reason PayPal went with this (in my opinion) ill- advised 180 day window is to reduce the cost of credit card chargebacks, since most CCs give you about that long to charge back. My understanding is that some banks and credit card companies were starting to look askance at PayPal because of the number of chargebacks their customers were filing against them as PayPal is the merchant of record on these.

Seems reasonable on the surface, but the HUGE difference between credit card chargebacks and PayPal is that credit cards take notice if the user files too many and may even revoke the user's credit privileges if they make a habit of it. PayPal seems to encourage it, enforcing zero restrictions on buyers doing this whatsoever. What's equally underhanded is when the buyer also gets 180 days to file item not received. The only info PayPal will accept to fight this is online viewable proof of delivery- which the USPS and other carriers generally limits availability of this info on line to 90- 120 days- so guess what?

The main problems with both eBay and PayPal is that they have this really curious addiction to increasing profit by cutting expenses... and they do it by making expenses inherent to their business models the seller's liability. If I were eBay and PayPal, I'd realize that it's the sellers that pay me, and therefore sellers are MY customers, but they insist upon the model that the buyers are "their" customers... even though, as a buyer, I've never paid either one a dime.

Actually, it isn't even really that they're intending to coddle buyers... they're doing nothing but looking out for themselves, with "buyer protection" being an unintended consequence that just happens to be an excellent selling point.

You could bet real money that if buyers started costing eBay and PayPal money, they'd be given short shrift as well.

I guess the moral of this is that, like any other recreational drug or beverage, you need to know the consequences and the limits of its usefulness so as to minimize your risk.