What finish was used on Victor and Edison machines?

[CMcPherson]

Was varnish or lacquer typically used?
Are there any good tutorials or write-ups on refinishing these cases?
I am going to begin practicing on some "barn-finds" that would otherwise have no value anyway.

[De Soto Frank]

In the early - mid '20's, Victor switched to sprayed, tinted lacquer finishes ("pyroxylin lacquer", also known as nitro-cellulose), which dried much faster.

This is the finish found on Orthophonic Victrolas.


The earlier Victrolas used a base finish of shellac, and then top-coat of varnish to give it water resistance ( prevent white rings from damp glasses, flower-pots, etc. ).

As it ages, and is exposed to heat, sunlight, UV, the oils gradually evaporate from the varnish layer, causing it to shrink, first showing as a fine web of "crazing" where you see crackles, but the finish layer is still smooth, and then it advances to "alligatoring" where the varnish continues to shrink, and the crazing lines become cracks, and the finish becomes rough and dull. Many pre-Depression pianos look like this.

I believe Edison and Columbia used the same basic techniques.


While shellac and lacquer finishes can sometimes be "re-amalgamated" with application of the appropriate solvent, allowing the surface to "flow-out", once varnish has cured, the original solvent (turpentine) will no longer soften it.

Many forum members have good results improving an alligatored finish using Howard's "restore-a-finish" products.


The very first recommendation is to give the piece a thorough cleaning, removing years of dead wax, tobacco / nicotine funk / dirt, and get down to the finish itself. A favorite approach is to use GOOP cream hand-cleaner (non-gritty), and paper towels, and perhaps 0000 steel-wool.

Once you get the piece de-gunked, you can better evaluate the condition of the finish itself, and go from there.


This is just scratching the surface ( if you'll pardon the expression )...

[MidMich]

Place a bit of denatured alcohol on a spot, if it soften and comes off then it is shellac. Varnish does not come off with denatured alcohol.
Jeff

[CMcPherson]

In the early - mid '20's, Victor switched to sprayed, tinted lacquer finishes ("pyroxylin lacquer", also known as nitro-cellulose), which dried much faster.

The earlier Victrolas used a base finish of shellac, and then top-coat of varnish to give it water resistance ( prevent white rings from damp glasses, flower-pots, etc. ).


While shellac and lacquer finishes can sometimes be "re-amalgamated" with application of the appropriate solvent, allowing the surface to "flow-out", once varnish has cured, the original solvent (turpentine) will no longer soften it.

Thank you both for the great info.

I could have been a little more clear of what I'm up to.
So yes, my keepers get a few light cleanings with GoJo with a min. of 24 hrs. between cleanings so I don't soak the wood.
Once I'm not getting dirty rags, I use Howard's restore-a-finish and then a couple coats of their bees wax.
Luckily I haven't had any crazing or alligatoring to deal with on those.

Now that I'm paying attention, I've run across a few empty table-top cases (free or nearly so) locally that don't any have finish whatsoever and one that is alligatored.
I'm practicing refinishing those so that I can be better at it when I run a across a keeper that needs more attention.

So was that base shellac finish on early machines tinted with color or was it applied over the appropriate stain color?
Any info on weather the finish was brush applied or rubbed on?
My plan for the two that have no finish is to clean/sand very well,stain if necessary, then apply appropriate finish.
My plan for the alligatored finish is to strip and refinish. I'll practice re-amalgamating next time.

Place a bit of denatured alcohol on a spot, if it soften and comes off then it is shellac. Varnish does not come off with denatured alcohol.
Jeff

So denatured alcohol will strip shellac. What works for varnish and lacquer?
Or should I use a all purpose furniture stripper?

Please feel free to correct any misinterpretations.

[gramophone-georg]

In the early - mid '20's, Victor switched to sprayed, tinted lacquer finishes ("pyroxylin lacquer", also known as nitro-cellulose), which dried much faster.

The earlier Victrolas used a base finish of shellac, and then top-coat of varnish to give it water resistance ( prevent white rings from damp glasses, flower-pots, etc. ).


While shellac and lacquer finishes can sometimes be "re-amalgamated" with application of the appropriate solvent, allowing the surface to "flow-out", once varnish has cured, the original solvent (turpentine) will no longer soften it.

Thank you both for the great info.

I could have been a little more clear of what I'm up to.
So yes, my keepers get a few light cleanings with GoJo with a min. of 24 hrs. between cleanings so I don't soak the wood.
Once I'm not getting dirty rags, I use Howard's restore-a-finish and then a couple coats of their bees wax.
Luckily I haven't had any crazing or alligatoring to deal with on those.

Now that I'm paying attention, I've run across a few empty table-top cases (free or nearly so) locally that don't any have finish whatsoever and one that is alligatored.
I'm practicing refinishing those so that I can be better at it when I run a across a keeper that needs more attention.

So was that base shellac finish on early machines tinted with color or was it applied over the appropriate stain color?
Any info on weather the finish was brush applied or rubbed on?
My plan for the two that have no finish is to clean/sand very well,stain if necessary, then apply appropriate finish.
My plan for the alligatored finish is to strip and refinish. I'll practice re-amalgamating next time.

Place a bit of denatured alcohol on a spot, if it soften and comes off then it is shellac. Varnish does not come off with denatured alcohol.
Jeff

So denatured alcohol will strip shellac. What works for varnish and lacquer?
Or should I use a all purpose furniture stripper?

Please feel free to correct any misinterpretations.

The denatured alcohol is a test, I think.

If you want to remove the top finish but not the underlying color, I use Formby's Furniture Refinisher. If you want to remove it all I am a huge fan of this:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/produc ... f_1000.jpg

Home Despot to the rescue!

Remove the finish in both cases with solvent gloves and a Scotch Brite.

[CMcPherson]

[MidMich]

You can use the denatured alcohol to strip the shellac. It works good and it will leave the stain alone. Do a web search of how to strip shellac. Tons of pages on how to do it. Most just brush on a light coat -- in a well ventilated area and let it set for a minute. I just put a little in a old wadded up sock, dabbed it on and the wiped it off. it removed what was left of the shellac on a Amberola 30 lid with out any problems. Shellac comes in either amber color or the clear. The amber adds a very light red tint and more depth to the finish. Tons of pages on the web on how to use it.
Lacquer thiner to remove Lacquer or Varnish.
Jeff

[gramophone-georg]

You can use the denatured alcohol to strip the shellac. It works good and it will leave the stain alone. Do a web search of how to strip shellac. Tons of pages on how to do it. Most just brush on a light coat -- in a well ventilated area and let it set for a minute. I just put a little in a old wadded up sock, dabbed it on and the wiped it off. it removed what was left of the shellac on a Amberola 30 lid with out any problems. Shellac comes in either amber color or the clear. The amber adds a very light red tint and more depth to the finish. Tons of pages on the web on how to use it.
Lacquer thiner to remove Lacquer or Varnish.
Jeff

Then there's French Polishing which is a real over- restoration but period correct and just stunningly beautiful. I wouldn't do this on a machine that I planned to re- sell, though... although some collectors really love it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_polish

http://www.lmii.com/french-polish

[MidMich]

At least with the French Polishing, you do not have to worry about brush strokes showing up.
Jeff

[De Soto Frank]

French polish would be okay for a red-mahogany "piano finish", probably very impractical ( if not impossible ) over oak.