HMV model 88a in poor condition

[Derek]

This is my first post. I have a large cupboard full of 78s.

When I was young I was given by a collector a small portable gramophone which is branded Goldring but has BSR embossed in the turntable mat.

Some years later (but some years ago) I bought at auction an HMV portable. I have recently started to look at servicing it but it is in pretty poor condition. It looks like it has possibly been stored under a house or something. All the chromework is rusty / flaking, the case is warped and the bit that comes down to cover the needle bin has broken out of the case. The metal part that keeps the lid up has snapped at one point. It plays but some poorer condition records that can be played on the Goldring cause it to slow to a halt. Lifting the mechanicals out I can see the main spring has pushed the top off the cylinder that houses it. Would it be likely I can just push this back on (ie that the spring just needs to be kept in its housing) or is it likely the spring itself is actually broken to have caused this? Is this machine likely to be worth trying to restore?

The records it plays sound considerably better than on the Goldring, partly I think due to having an internal horn that runs inside the machine whereas the Goldring has nowhere near the extent of this acoustic, the sound simply coming out very near to the arm of the machine. I will always keep the Goldring as it is in good condition and has sentimental value to me but would like to also have a machine with a better sound. There is for instance a Decca model 60 I could get and it looks from the photos to be in nice condition but how would that likely compare in sound?

Also, I still have probably 200 single use needles but I also have a box of needles that I have noticed claim to last for 20 plays. Any comments regarding these? (I had always just had single use needles and changed after each record).

Thanks for your help.

[nostalgia]

Hi Derek, and welcome to the forum:)
Would it be possible for you to upload some photos of the motor and different parts of your complete gramophone?
It is always easier to give advices and recommendations when being able to get an overview of the machine.

[Derek]

Thanks for your reply and welcome.

Probably should have done that (uploaded the photos).

Here are the pics. Unfortunately the spring didn't quite misbehave the way it was to show it. You can see the top lifting off the canister - at one stage the spring was very visible as it had lifted up and was pushing on this loose part of the canister (excuse my ignorance - what is the canister thing the spring sits in called?). While I was taking these photos the spring seemed to be staying in place but the top of the canister was still just flopping around.

You can also sort of see the covering is coming away particularly inside the lid. Slight warping / dishing of the lid (which is quite a thin cardboard like construction on the top which is then covered) but wouldn't be a great problem. Cover for needles broken off (just pushed in at the moment) but could probably be fixed on with washers either side.

Thoughts greatly appreciated.

[Phono48]

The top of the spring drum should be held in place with a circular wire clip, which sits inside a groove on the inside of the drum. I can't see it on the photos. Once removed for whatever reason, it can often be a problem to get back on, so is often found missing, or wrongly fitted, so that as the spring is wound, the lid pops off. Slowing down is usually because the spring is gummed up with old solidified grease, which sticks the coils together, resulting in a loss of power. The spring needs to be taken out, cleaned, and replaced with fresh grease, but this is definitely not a job for a novice, as the tightly coiled spring needs to be taken out gradually, and one slip can result in injury to yourself and your surroundings! There are plenty of restorers who will do this for you, but with apologies, I have to say that given the overall condition of the machine, and the fact that the 88 was the lowest quality machine ever to leave the HMV factory, it hardly seems to justify the expense.

[nostalgia]

Derek, taking into consideration this is your first HMV, and also agreeing with Barry (Phono48), that the expenses and frustrations you will get on starting to have this machine repaired, will hardly/never cover its total value when it is repaired. If it was my machine, and I was at your stage of getting into this hobby, I would put it aside in a closet, and start look for a more decent HMV 101/102, that also is far more sturdy machines, and also imho actually easier to repair since the components are more quality built, as the rest of these machines. Maybe in the future you will find a HMV 88, that needs just a few small repairs to get it fixed, and then you can use this Model 88 as a donor machine. I have been there, done that, not with a model 88, but with a few other HMV portables. Buying a decent HMV 101/102, will most likely also be far less expensive than repairing your model 88, when I look at your photos.
To be able to start enjoying playing and enjoying your cupboard full of 78 records, is also another good reason to hunt a HMV 101/102m instead of looking for parts for this 88 model, parts that are also not that easy to find in the UK/continental Europe. It is much easier to find parts for HMV 101/102 really, and adding that they are far better machines, the decision should not be too difficult:) Keep the faith, and keep us posted on your decision.

[Derek]

Thanks for your reply.

I had a feeling that might be the case. There are some really nice looking table models available (not to mention plenty of portables similar to mine) available for less than I could reasonably expect someone to restore mine for. If it weren't for the safety aspect of the spring I would put the time in myself for the self satisfaction of trying to bring it up. It works for many records so I might just keep it as is for the time being.

What would be the chance of breaking the grease up a bit / unsticking the springs with a bit of penetrating oil or similar and then giving it a bit of use (given the top is already off the cylinder so easy to spray / drop something down there). Obviously not the proper way to repair but given probably not worth repairing if I could get just a little bit more out of the spring (given it plays some records and sounds quite good) and if working well enough doing that I could just tidy up the case a bit and still get a bit of enjoyment out of it.

[Derek]

Sorry nostalgia, I posted just before reading your reply.

That makes sense. I am in Australia and have actually been thinking of getting a table model, maybe a Rexonola which is quite a common Australian brand. I have seen a few that appear and are described as being in good condition for, as you say, a lot less than I could reasonably expect someone to restore my HMV for.

I have played 78s for years but just on an electric turntable, every now and again getting out the Goldring which a collector gave me when I was only seven, because I had started collecting records from secondhand stores. The HMV I got some years later (but some years ago) at auction (price paid not enough to be upset by your assessment).

As well as maybe getting a table model (as above) in addition to my Goldring I will put it away as you suggest but maybe I can gradually do little bits on it as practice for working on a better machine?

Would penetrating oil or something similar sprayed into the spring ever have any hope of getting it going just a bit better when not worth a proper repair?

[Phono48]

Would penetrating oil or something similar sprayed into the spring ever have any hope of getting it going just a bit better when not worth a proper repair?

In short, no! With the lid of the spring flopping about, the spring will "cone" as it's wound up, eventually causing it to weaken even further. You could dismantle the motor and see if the circular clip is still there, but even if it is, and you manage to replace it, the slowing down problem will not be solved.The grease in the spring will now have hardened to the point where it has to be chipped off with a chisel to get it clean, so penetrating oil will do nothing except to make the grease into a sticky mess that will be forced out when the spring is wound, and will drip into the base of the case, adding to your problems! Nostalgias' advice is good, forget it for the time being, and put it away as a possibly source of spares (although to be honest, apart from the soundbox, brakes and winding handle, there's not much else worth saving) Sorry to be so negative, but as you say, what you could spend repairing this would be better spent on a better quality machine in better condition.

Barry

[soundgen]

Sorry nostalgia, I posted just before reading your reply.

That makes sense. I am in Australia and have actually been thinking of getting a table model, maybe a Rexonola which is quite a common Australian brand. I have seen a few that appear and are described as being in good condition for, as you say, a lot less than I could reasonably expect someone to restore my HMV for.

I have played 78s for years but just on an electric turntable, every now and again getting out the Goldring which a collector gave me when I was only seven, because I had started collecting records from secondhand stores. The HMV I got some years later (but some years ago) at auction (price paid not enough to be upset by your assessment).

As well as maybe getting a table model (as above) in addition to my Goldring I will put it away as you suggest but maybe I can gradually do little bits on it as practice for working on a better machine?

Would penetrating oil or something similar sprayed into the spring ever have any hope of getting it going just a bit better when not worth a proper repair?

Hello Derek ,don't listen to curmudgeons , yes repair it is really easy and the trial and error you use doing it will stand you in good stead for the next 100 machines you acquire , give me your address I'll post you a lid stay and spring barrel clip free of Charge to get you going , rexine is easily stuck back down with diluted wood glue and can be stained back with shoe dye , rusty parts can be polished with wire wool and clear lacquered to remain shiny , this model will not have solid grease in the spring barrel so you can just add some more grease packed into the barrel and then clip the lid back on , it will look good and you will feel good at rescuing an 70 year old object and it won't cost more than Aus$ 20 for grease and wire wool etc it will sound really good as these are very loud soundboxes

[epigramophone]

In addition to the mechanical faults already mentioned by others, I see what looks like woodworm holes in the motor board. To test whether the woodworm is still active, remove the motor board and tap it. If fine dust falls out of the holes you have a problem which could infest other items. Only you can decide whether the machine is worth saving.