Determining pressing quality from run-out numbers

[penman]

Has anyone tried to determine whether a pressing is early or late in the run from a particular stamper by analyzing the quality of the catalog number and stamper code in the run-out area. I'm particularly interested in Victor acoustics, and while I can clearly see whether a record has been pressed from an early stamper, you don't really know where in the run the record comes from. I would assume that you might get a hint from the quality of the numbers, but have not really looked hard at it. Wondering if anyone has already done that.

[Inigo]

First of all, how many records did they press from a metal part... 500?

[Wolfe]

More than 500. Maybe 2-3 thousand from one set of stampers.

[penman]

Sources usually say stampers were used for anywhere from 500 to 1500, in the early days. Obviously an early pressing from a low number stamper would be the best, but would a late pressing be better or worse than an early pressing from a late stamper. If you assume that the numbers wear out along with the grooves, a slightly muddled looking record number might be a clue to a worn out stamper.

[Governor Flyball]

This is a good question. I have thought about this for many years looking at Victor (US) vs Berliner Gramophone (Canada) pressings from the same master. As stamper wore out Victor and Berliner went back to the daughter discs from which the stampers was made. It is interesting to look at early 1920's pressings of circa 1905 recordings then still in the catalog. Canadian pressings would include the original single face catalog number, the later double face number plus evidence of the hand written matrix number. Sometimes Berliner Canada left the original 1905 matrix number fully intact. The Canadian edge numbers would carry original and new catalog numbers side by side at 12 o'clock, the take number at 9 o'clock and matrix number at 6 o'clock.

Victor would be careful to conceal the extra numbers and it seemed they would go out of their way to obliterate evidence of the 1905 recording in the early 20's.

As for the quality of later pressings, I tend to think the Berliner Canada later pressings of early recording were unmolested and yielded quieter playback whereas Victor daughter disc meddling resulted in more surface noise.

As for evidence of a worn out stamper from examining the catalog number, I believe the quality control would weed out the stamper long before there was any evidence of the number appearing deformed. Although I am open to be proven wrong.

[Governor Flyball]

I would like to add that the UK Gramophone Company pressings from Victor masters identified each stamper with a letter spelling out the word GRAMOPHONE. When they got to the end of the word, they would double up letters e.g. after E would come GG. And a think each stamper was good for about 800 pressings? (my guess)

[Governor Flyball]

Regarding the Gramophone Company Ltd. stampers, I found an interesting web page with much information on European disc markings.

The Gramophone Company stamper ID information I described above was in slight error. The code is the letters represented numerals 1 thru 10. GG I suppose would represent the 11th stamper.

Extracted from the UK webpage link:

"...For some reason, by 1912 the Gramophone Co. had introduced a new system of indicating stamper numbers. This used letters instead of numbers, and they derived a simple code from the company name: GRAMOPHone Company LTD. The capitals represented the numbers 1 to 10, thus:

G R A M O P H L T D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
If this first stamper wore out, then a second would have been made, and the discs pressed from it would bear the letter ‘R’ at 3 o’clock. A third would bear ‘A’ and so on. At first, these letters were relatively large: the one shown above is nearly 5mm tall. Later they were made smaller and fainter, though they remained in use until the démise of HMV 78s in 1958, a period of 36 years."


https://early78s.uk/markings-on-78-rpm-records/