Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

[jamiegramo]

The forum already has a Crapophone/Frankenphone subsection which could be used for this purpose.

Unfortunately that wouldn’t work. Unlike the rest of the site, the crapophones/fakes/scams section is only available to view by signed in members and therefore of no help to the general public who actually need the help most.

[gramophoneshane]

There used to be an Indian export company site that had a catalogue of about 40 or more different "replica" gramophones that were available.

It's showed the usual fake HMV and Victor external horn models with square, hexagonal and round wood cases and smooth and embossed flimsy brass horns but also the fancy carved, guilded, and tacky creations that occasionally surface, but they also had several front mount horn machines, with several portables in various styles and colours, some of which looked actually quite convincing, and even a couple different kiddy machines.

If it weren't for the poor quality fittings they used when compared next to an original, I think some of those portables and kids machine would probably even fool some of the more seasoned collectors.
Unfortunately I can't see the link I had for the site, but I'm pretty sure it was posted to this forum in the early days, although there's a possibility that site no longer exists.

I tried to link a different site that showed a few different models with suppliers info, but the link only works once then sends you to their export company list that sells everything from rice to repro medieval armour.
If you google "replica gramophone exports India" you'll find various individual machines listed from different export companies.

[jamiegramo]

This medallion must be some type of identification...


Screen Shot 2021-09-04 at 6.56.18 PM.png

This appears to be a celluloid plaque and is in the Mucha style. Whilst I think it looks good and is probably old, it may have always been on the machine, but I question this especially because the other plaque has been added.

[jamiegramo]

I feel Auction Houses have a bigger responsibility than private sellers. As Jamie says, they would never dare to sell silver as gold, or a Jaguar as a Rolls Royce. Life is short, but when big auction houses are continuing this practice, their indifference are slowly ruining our hobby, and continuing to slam the HMV name, history and logo. Myself, I don't think it is okay.

If noone is taking any legal action, the practice will of course continue, but is there something else to do about it? I admit an idea yesterday slowly took form in my head. What about listing the name on the Auction House in this forum, with photos and printscreens of their listing? I mean, no legitimate and serious business want to lose their good reputation and customers, and since more and more people are using Google to verify and quality check a business before doing business with them, a red flag given here on the forum, would at least help some buyers from being fooled into buying a crapophone, or an unoriginal gramophone listed as original. In the long run, it also hopefully would make some of these sellers think twice before selling another gramophone without checking its authenticity.

Good or bad idea?

I think it’s an excellent idea. Perhaps a thread under the European section with a title like ‘Auction House Misrepresentations’ or something like that… the auction house could be named with auction date and lot number and how the item has been misrepresented. Anyone who agrees or disagrees can say so. Healthy debate. The information should be searchable on google etc. As you say auction houses should have a bigger responsibility. People should be able to feel they are more trustworthy than private and eBay sellers.

[gramophoneshane]

I told them I owned the HMG book that showed all HMV models, were corresponding regularly with the international community of HMV collectiors, but they of course, did not want to listen to that.

Actually, no it does not.
It only shows those models made by HMV in England for the British market.

Not only does it not show HMV models that were made in France, Germany, Spain and other countries, but it does not show HMV models that were made in England for export only, like those sold in Australasia, and there was about 10 different models which went through 2-3 changes throughout production.

These where given names rather than number model designations. Some where existing British designs simply given a name, while others were completely different to what was sold in Britain.

There were models called Excello, Zealand, Bungalow, and a host of others, all legitimate machines made in Hayes Middlesex, but never sold in the country in which they were made.

Some were table grands and console models, but most were upright cabinet models, a couple of which even had a saxophone horn included during changes made during their production run.

You'll find one such model here in the archives.
The first "Bungalow" model had an exhibition soundbox, gooseneck tonearm and basic horn.
The second version was the "new Bungalow" (the one shown in the archives) had a no.4 soundbox, swan neck tonearm, and the same horn that was used in the 109 table model.
Most models simply had "new" added to their name when the soundbox and tonearm were changed, so the second version became for example, the "new Zealand" or " new Bungalow".
I also have an "Excello No.3", which is a hornless model 1 but with a no.2 soundbox.
They were never sold in England with anything but an exhibition soundbox.

So there are actually probably dozens of different HMV models that are completely legitimate but are not shown in HMG.

[Steve]

I told them I owned the HMG book that showed all HMV models, were corresponding regularly with the international community of HMV collectiors, but they of course, did not want to listen to that.

Actually, no it does not.
It only shows those models made by HMV in England for the British market.

Not only does it not show HMV models that were made in France, Germany, Spain and other countries, but it does not show HMV models that were made in England for export only, like those sold in Australasia, and there was about 10 different models which went through 2-3 changes throughout production.

These where given names rather than number model designations. Some where existing British designs simply given a name, while others were completely different to what was sold in Britain.

There were models called Excello, Zealand, Bungalow, and a host of others, all legitimate machines made in Hayes Middlesex, but never sold in the country in which they were made.

Some were table grands and console models, but most were upright cabinet models, a couple of which even had a saxophone horn included during changes made during their production run.

You'll find one such model here in the archives.
The first "Bungalow" model had an exhibition soundbox, gooseneck tonearm and basic horn.
The second version was the "new Bungalow" (the one shown in the archives) had a no.4 soundbox, swan neck tonearm, and the same horn that was used in the 109 table model.
Most models simply had "new" added to their name when the soundbox and tonearm were changed, so the second version became for example, the "new Zealand" or " new Bungalow".
I also have an "Excello No.3", which is a hornless model 1 but with a no.2 soundbox.
They were never sold in England with anything but an exhibition soundbox.

So there are actually probably dozens of different HMV models that are completely legitimate but are not shown in HMG.

I agree with Shane. Due to non-UK machines being outside the remit of "HMG", there are more machines excluded from it than those included. For common or fairly well known UK machines it is an ideal reference book but when we cross over into the murky waters of the continental divisions of the Gramophone Company the picture gets far more complicated and sadly, there are no reference books (in 2021) which cover this.

Something I am curious about and discussed recently with a member here is the amount of references to HMG we see now in Ebay and general auction listings, even from sellers who have seemingly no interest in gramophones whatsoever or prior knowledge of whatever it is they're selling.

I can't think of any other specialist items which are marketed by ordinary members of the public with information gleaned from an equally limited and specialist publication. Is this subject now taught in schools?

[epigramophone]

Perhaps every auction house selling gramophones should invest in a copy of HMG.
That would create enough new demand for the book to justify a reprint.

[Inigo]

There were Spanish hmv models that I believed to be frankenphones, until I got a Spanish catalogue and saw our own models, different from those in the uk, especially in 1905-1915. Later Spanish models are those of the uk. We lost our original designs, maybe at the time of founding the Spanish branch (c. 1915). Si in the end, the Great Times for our branch to have original Spanish models was when we had the Compañía Francesa del Gramophone, and maybe those original designs were finally pushed (or maybe directly created) by the French Cie francaise.

[Steve]

There were Spanish hmv models that I believed to be frankenphones, until I got a Spanish catalogue and saw our own models, different from those in the uk, especially in 1905-1915. Later Spanish models are those of the uk. We lost our original designs, maybe at the time of founding the Spanish branch (c. 1915). Si in the end, the Great Times for our branch to have original Spanish models was when we had the Compañía Francesa del Gramophone, and maybe those original designs were finally pushed (or maybe directly created) by the French Cie francaise.

You're quite right on all four accounts!

I passed up a few genuine Spanish machines in the mistaken belief they were Frankenphones back in the day. I now have two genuine Spanish horn models and a rare (if not unique) Indian model found in Spain of all places.

[edisonplayer]

To be honest, some people are too dumb to know the difference between a Crapophone and the real thing.edisonplayer.