Help with Cygnet elbow

[Gramtastic]

Hi all, a while ago I posted a wanted ad for a cygnet elbow in the UK. I have recently come across this one but am puzzled by it ! it seems shorter than the normal elbows but the main difference is the holes in the rim. There are two on one side and a slot in the other and these fit perfectly onto the cygnet 10 panel horn end I have but....... the horn ends up the wrong way round ! i.e. the horn suspension is on the elbow side (see pics for better explanation !) What was this elbow for, I'm confused ??

[zapper]

Hi.
Wondering if it maybe from a radio horn?

[Gramtastic]

Hi, it could be but it would be a very big coincidence if it used exactly the same three pin mountings though ?

[gramophoneshane]

I think it's perhaps a reproduction and the collar has been put on the elbow upside down.
I think it's a reproduction because it's missing the little brass arm that swings across to secure the single pin in the slot. Maybe the two pieces held together better configured upside down without the locking arm?
I'd stripe the gold paint off it, then heat the collars soldered joint and resolder it the right way.
The pins are configured the correct way on the 10 panel cone so I wouldn't try changing that.

Then again, zapper could be correct.
This same elbow fitted the 10, 11 and music master horn, so there's a good chance the same size elbow or collar was used on music master and similar horns made for radios a decade later.
Stripping that gold paint off might help reveal its true origin?
It actually looks like it could be aluminium under the paint but it's hard to tell from the photo.

[Gramtastic]

Hi, thanks for the suggestions. I have stripped some of the paint off it and it is all made of brass which has been chrome/nickel plated. Not sure if this makes it any clearer what it was for ??

[Gramtastic]

so, to summarise: shows some age, professionally made (not by a man in a shed), made of brass plated with Chrome, holes and a slot which match perfectly the pins on an Edison cygnet bell, bell part ends up back to front when attached.

Possibilites: for a wireless speaker (but why use the Edison pin arrangement ?), end soldered on the wrong way round (but if it was why was it never turned round when someone tried to use it ? )

I can't believe no-one else had ever come across one before..... Any more suggestions ??

Thanks

[gramophoneshane]

I'm thinking it's from a radio speaker.
AFAIK Edison's cygnet elbows were all made of tinplate steel, and weren't ever chrome or nickel plated.
Being plated brass I think is a pretty sure sign it was never painted.
Edison's horns were either faux wood grained or painted to match the bell... usually black.

Is there any indication on the single slot side of it ever have the brass hook locking arm attached to it?

[Gramtastic]

Thanks, there is no indication of any locking catch ever being on it .

[gramophoneshane]

Looking on the internet at Music Master radio speakers it appears none of them used the brass locking arm on the collar, and it seems they were available in different sizes too, so I'm fairly certain yours is from a radio speaker.

This Opera horn below however appears to be plated under the paintwork, so perhaps Music Master did used plated brass elbows for their phonograph horns?
I've never owned one to examine in person so I don't know??
This one includes the locking arm.

And this Opera appears to have a plated elbow with no locking arm, so perhaps it's a radio horn not original to the machine?

[JerryVan]

The Opera elbows shown above ARE plated. They are TIN plated. The one has simply been polished, either to make it look "pretty", or to avoid the cost of a proper refinish using faux graining.

Though I don't have photographic proof at my fingertips, I'll state that the elbow in question is from a radio speaker. As to why a radio speaker company would copy Edison's 3 pin attachment mode, I believe the answer is simple; I don't think it was Edison's design to begin with. Music Master horns used that design, and I believe Music Master made Edison's wooden horns. Many reproduction and "fantasy" wooden horns produced today use collars and cygnet elbows "borrowed" from radio horns with that same or similar attachment.

If I have stated anything grossly inaccurate above, I hope to be corrected, so as not to further muddy the waters.