Expert ‘Mahogany Gramophone’

[Steve]

I phoned the auctioneers this morning and asked to speak to the managing director but was told he was away for the day and could not be contacted. I then asked to speak to the person running the company today and was put through to Dave. You would not believe the “could not care less” attitude and rudeness of this man. He merely stated that they have thousands of items going through their hands on a daily basis and could not be expected to know about them all. Fair enough to a certain extent but it should have been blindingly obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense that this high quality item was something in which to take an intelligent interest and great care. I enquired as to the results of the search of the CCTV but he did not know. I asked if the police had been informed---again he did not know---or care ! I then, in the interests of the poor vendor, spoke of values but he could not have been less concerned. The whole attitude was appalling and he finished up putting the phone down on me. I also informed him that a large number of people were watching their every action. Any vendor thinking of dealing with this firm needs to think extremely carefully before getting involved.

As Steve has noted, the lot has now been withdrawn but I am uncertain if this is a good or bad thing for the seller ?! I shall now email the MD putting the historical values of the stolen soundbox and whole instrument in writing so that there is no doubt about the level of recompense due to the unfortunate vendor.

Graham, you have done exactly the right thing phoning Cuttlestones Auctioneers (I’ve named them) and so much for their motto ‘We don’t just care about antiques and collectables. We care about you.’ If a gold bracelet had gone missing with a similar value to the soundbox would that be dismissed in the same way?

A good idea to email the MD.

Let's ALL email the MD!

[Steve]

I phoned the auctioneers this morning and asked to speak to the managing director but was told he was away for the day and could not be contacted. I then asked to speak to the person running the company today and was put through to Dave. You would not believe the “could not care less” attitude and rudeness of this man. He merely stated that they have thousands of items going through their hands on a daily basis and could not be expected to know about them all. Fair enough to a certain extent but it should have been blindingly obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense that this high quality item was something in which to take an intelligent interest and great care. I enquired as to the results of the search of the CCTV but he did not know. I asked if the police had been informed---again he did not know---or care ! I then, in the interests of the poor vendor, spoke of values but he could not have been less concerned. The whole attitude was appalling and he finished up putting the phone down on me. I also informed him that a large number of people were watching their every action. Any vendor thinking of dealing with this firm needs to think extremely carefully before getting involved.

As Steve has noted, the lot has now been withdrawn but I am uncertain if this is a good or bad thing for the seller ?! I shall now email the MD putting the historical values of the stolen soundbox and whole instrument in writing so that there is no doubt about the level of recompense due to the unfortunate vendor.

Well done, Graham, for your effort although where we go from here is currently very uncertain. I just hope this machine does not get destroyed or damaged any further; it would be such a tragic loss of such a wonderful and perfectly preserved machine. I did manage to get some better photos and a confirmation that the auctioneers were at a loss to know whether the motor was original as they could not access the "lid" because "it is fixed down" (?). Anyway, we know the motor isn't original but the rest certainly is / was.

Where this ends up we'll have to wait and see now although any representations made to the management will likely fall upon deaf ears if the response from Dave is any indication. With Ebay now offering ZERO fees to sellers, it's a wonder how long any auctioneering business will be able to continue into the future, especially when the level of competence, care and knowledge in general is at such an all-time low.

[Garret]

Let's ALL email the MD!

What will that accomplish?

[jamiegramo]

Well done, Graham, for your effort although where we go from here is currently very uncertain. I just hope this machine does not get destroyed or damaged any further; it would be such a tragic loss of such a wonderful and perfectly preserved machine. I did manage to get some better photos and a confirmation that the auctioneers were at a loss to know whether the motor was original as they could not access the "lid" because "it is fixed down" (?). Anyway, we know the motor isn't original but the rest certainly is / was.

Where this ends up we'll have to wait and see now although any representations made to the management will likely fall upon deaf ears if the response from Dave is any indication. With Ebay now offering ZERO fees to sellers, it's a wonder how long any auctioneering business will be able to continue into the future, especially when the level of competence, care and knowledge in general is at such an all-time low.

Steve, I was interested that you managed to get extras photos before the machine vanished entirely. Would the change in motor have effected the value much?

[JerryVan]

I've been following this sad tale. Please explain who, or what, the MD is.

[poodling around]

I've been following this sad tale. Please explain who, or what, the MD is.

I think it may be the 'Managing Director' - senior member of the organisation.

[Steve]

Let's ALL email the MD!

What will that accomplish?

Initially: absolutely nothing!
In time (with some hope): an awareness that many people identified a valuable item which whilst in their custody they allowed to become compromised resulting in a significant loss in value and potentially all without the vendor knowing. It's not great publicity if that should get out and find its way into say, Antiques Trade Gazette - still the lifeblood of many old school sale rooms.

[Steve]

Well done, Graham, for your effort although where we go from here is currently very uncertain. I just hope this machine does not get destroyed or damaged any further; it would be such a tragic loss of such a wonderful and perfectly preserved machine. I did manage to get some better photos and a confirmation that the auctioneers were at a loss to know whether the motor was original as they could not access the "lid" because "it is fixed down" (?). Anyway, we know the motor isn't original but the rest certainly is / was.

Where this ends up we'll have to wait and see now although any representations made to the management will likely fall upon deaf ears if the response from Dave is any indication. With Ebay now offering ZERO fees to sellers, it's a wonder how long any auctioneering business will be able to continue into the future, especially when the level of competence, care and knowledge in general is at such an all-time low.

Steve, I was interested that you managed to get extras photos before the machine vanished entirely. Would the change in motor have effected the value much?

The upgrade from spring power to electric was a fairly common practice and accepted convention during the period of these large acoustic machines, so it was part of their natural history to avoid total obsolescence. It's not quite the same thing as an earlier Victor / HMV horn model being re-motored with say, a Garrard or non-original spring motor! Of course, equally, not all collectors want to be fiddling around with vintage electrical motors and the added risks they can bring so it can deter some from buying. In my limited experience seeing these sell, it appears to be the horn which is the most important part that needs to be original and in good condition. Of course, the rest of the plumbing and soundbox is also very important, as is the cabinet. The motor change wouldn't have bothered me if it had been serviced, re-wired and functioned perfectly. In fact, on the right day, I might have found it preferable to my spring powered EMG and Experts!

[Garret]

Let's ALL email the MD!

What will that accomplish?

Initially: absolutely nothing!
In time (with some hope): an awareness that more than one person has identified a valuable item which they have allowed to become compromised and reduced in value whilst in their "care" and responsibility and potentially all without the vendor knowing. It's not great publicity if that should get out and find its way into say, Antiques Trade Gazette - still the lifeblood of many old school sale rooms.

I worked for an auction house in high school. This is wishful thinking.

[Garret]

The upgrade from spring power to electric was a fairly common practice and accepted convention during the period of these large acoustic machines, so it was part of their natural history to avoid total obsolescence. It's not quite the same thing as an earlier Victor / HMV horn model being re-motored with say, a Garrard or non-original spring motor! Of course, equally, not all collectors want to be fiddling around with vintage electrical motors and the added risks they can bring so it can deter some from buying. In my limited experience seeing these sell, it appears to be the horn which is the most important part that needs to be original and in good condition. Of course, the rest of the plumbing and soundbox is also very important, as is the cabinet. The motor change wouldn't have bothered me if it had been serviced, re-wired and functioned perfectly. In fact, on the right day, I might have found it preferable to my spring powered EMG and Experts!

The quality of the motor conversion is very important. If it was done by an amateur, and the tone arm tracking angle is out of alignment with the turntable spindle, you can have major tracking problems leading to serious record wear.