Never say never!

[Steve]

I believe the intention was to point out the most obvious crap-o's "features" to newbies. Then the list of exceptions is nearly infinite, but that is best to be left for a later stage into this hobby.

It's my video, so I take the flak. Yes, it was indeed my intention to warn of the perils of the usual fake machines, and as it happens I compared them to a typical Swiss type machine I happened to be looking at.

I see a lot of these fake machines in the wild and have had conversations with potential buyers who assumed they must be genuine as they have never seen anything else.

Yes, I will confess I have seen very few real horn machines. I'd love to have actually had a real HMV or Victor machine to compare against, but I have never seen one in the wild, much less had a chance to buy one (except for possibly at the only UK fair I am aware of, RetroTechUK).

On the other hand I appreciate that's not the viewer's fault and I have clearly been more absolute in my statements than I should have been.

I notice someone has said the video is "completely misleading". Is that the general opinion?
Thanks

It was me who said I doubted you'd seen many original HMV horn machines in the flesh so thank you for at least admitting my suspicion was correct. I hope you don't feel my criticism was unjustified.

Similar to you, where I live I have never seen an original horn machine for sale "in the wild" and although RetroTech does occasionally have sellers with them, it's not the best place to buy one in my honest opinion. If I had been reliant on finding local machines for sale these past 30 plus years my collection would be all of 2 items, including a tatty 101 portable and a Decca 50 portable.....not much to write home about then.

I have (far too) many original horn machines including HMV but most have been bought through auctions or Ebay. Do you look on the saleroom.com or Ebay? I think auctions are probably your best bet. I bought 2 last week but had to make an 8 hour round trip to collect them! Convenience is sadly not really an option when you're looking for original horn machines these days unless you live in the south-east or south-west of England and are a naturally lucky man!

It's also worth scouring continental Ebay and dealer websites on the continent. There are many riches to be found over there!

Good luck hunting.

PS - if you're planning to visit RetroTech this year, I'd be more than happy to meet up with you and bring along a good specimen HMV horn model for you to look at. I might even have a couple for sale - one biggie but "cheapie" with case polish restoration required and another immaculate example but with wooden horn so not exactly cheap!

[Marco Gilardetti]

I notice someone has said the video is "completely misleading". Is that the general opinion?
Thanks

No that isn’t the general opinion. As Sidewinder said ‘a largely excellent video’. And as Marco said ‘it was to point out the most obvious crap-o's "features" to newbies’, which it does. As collectors we tend to nit pick on details, imagining that someone with an original HMV might believe it’s a fake because it has a hinged motor board. That person is more likely to encounter a fake so this detail is largely irrelevant.

Again agree in full. While it is true that some non-HMV gramophones came with genuine round or polygonal shapes, the odds that a newby would find by chance one at a flea market are nearly zero. Same goes for polished brass horns: while indeed there are examples of genuine gramophones than came with polished brass horns, I have never happened to see one outside of a museum or a specialist book, go figure at a flea market, so the occasional newby may ignore these exceptions altogether.

External horn machines are indeed scarce and usually require big money (by the way: another hint to tell a genuine machine apart from a cheap crap-o); I, in turn, had a hard time putting my hands over one, so my best wishes that you will be able soon to own your desired one!

[Hoodoo]

I agree with jamiegrammo, above. To my mind, by far the worst feature of crapophones is the atrocious tracking - loose and floppy tonearm mounting that allows the reproducer to noticeably lean over and the tonearm either too long or too short, so the needle tip, when swung to the centre of the record, extends an inch or more beyond the spindle or the same distance short of it.
I pity the records played on such machines.

[Steve]

I notice someone has said the video is "completely misleading". Is that the general opinion?
Thanks

No that isn’t the general opinion. As Sidewinder said ‘a largely excellent video’. And as Marco said ‘it was to point out the most obvious crap-o's "features" to newbies’, which it does. As collectors we tend to nit pick on details, imagining that someone with an original HMV might believe it’s a fake because it has a hinged motor board. That person is more likely to encounter a fake so this detail is largely irrelevant.

Again agree in full. While it is true that some non-HMV gramophones came with genuine round or polygonal shapes, the odds that a newby would find by chance one at a flea market are nearly zero. Same goes for polished brass horns: while indeed there are examples of genuine gramophones than came with polished brass horns, I have never happened to see one outside of a museum or a specialist book, go figure at a flea market, so the occasional newby may ignore these exceptions altogether.

External horn machines are indeed scarce and usually require big money (by the way: another hint to tell a genuine machine apart from a cheap crap-o); I, in turn, had a hard time putting my hands over one, so my best wishes that you will be able soon to own your desired one!

FWIW, I've never seen an ORIGINAL brass MG horn on a machine for sale in over 33 years. There were I recall a couple at London sales in the 1990's but I never saw one of those in person. I've seen many reproductions, many witches hat type, but no guaranteed original morning glories. They must have a rare survival rate?

[CarlosV]

FWIW, I've never seen an ORIGINAL brass MG horn on a machine for sale in over 33 years. There were I recall a couple at London sales in the 1990's but I never saw one of those in person. I've seen many reproductions, many witches hat type, but no guaranteed original morning glories. They must have a rare survival rate?

The Victor VI - an expensive, but not rare machine - came with a very nice brass morning glory horn, but apart from that, the flower-shaped brass horns are indeed rare, Steve. You can find brass horns of other shapes: the French Aérophone has a horn that reminds a ship air duct (I posted it here sometime ago), and there is a not-that-rare German design that resembles superimposed layers of doughnuts, or the Michelin man. The brass conic witch hat horns as you say are not that rare neither, the older G&Ts and HMVs came with them.

[mrrgstuff]

Yes, I will confess I have seen very few real horn machines. I'd love to have actually had a real HMV or Victor machine to compare against, but I have never seen one in the wild, much less had a chance to buy one (except for possibly at the only UK fair I am aware of, RetroTechUK).

It was me who said I doubted you'd seen many original HMV horn machines in the flesh so thank you for at least admitting my suspicion was correct. I hope you don't feel my criticism was unjustified.

Similar to you, where I live I have never seen an original horn machine for sale "in the wild" and although RetroTech does occasionally have sellers with them, it's not the best place to buy one in my honest opinion. If I had been reliant on finding local machines for sale these past 30 plus years my collection would be all of 2 items, including a tatty 101 portable and a Decca 50 portable.....not much to write home about then.

I have (far too) many original horn machines including HMV but most have been bought through auctions or Ebay. Do you look on the saleroom.com or Ebay? I think auctions are probably your best bet. I bought 2 last week but had to make an 8 hour round trip to collect them! Convenience is sadly not really an option when you're looking for original horn machines these days unless you live in the south-east or south-west of England and are a naturally lucky man!

It's also worth scouring continental Ebay and dealer websites on the continent. There are many riches to be found over there!

Good luck hunting.

PS - if you're planning to visit RetroTech this year, I'd be more than happy to meet up with you and bring along a good specimen HMV horn model for you to look at. I might even have a couple for sale - one biggie but "cheapie" with case polish restoration required and another immaculate example but with wooden horn so not exactly cheap!

No problem, it's fine. I take the criticism. My knowledge on external horn machines is certainly limited and really only confined to the cheap Swiss type and the modern fakes.

I am fortunate to have found quite a few mainly internal horn machines in my searching (many I have bought, many I have left), mainly at car boot sales and antique shops. I try not to look on ebay as I know from experience I just end up finding loads of things I'd like to buy, though I did buy one machine and a load of soundboxes on there when I first started collecting, which was only about 9 years ago.

I have been tempted by more traditional auctions too, but have avoided them so far for much the same reasons, but maybe in the future.

I do intend to be at RetroTechUK this year, so thanks for the very kind offer to meet up which I will happily take up. If you do have a 'cheapie' machines for sale, I certainly would be interested too, depending on whether I can afford it and whether I can convince my wife I need another machine
Thanks again.

[mrrgstuff]

I like it and agree with what Steve said - every video to educate people about crapo and other franken-messes is a positive contribution.

So thanks for the video!

here the motherload... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqcnx9vY7U

Thanks and thanks for posting that link. I have seen this and at least one other video from the same workshop showing these machines being assembled. I'm hoping more will get posted showing other parts of production. It's clear from the fake machines I have seen and also from Ebay adverts popping up in YouTube that fake piller and plate type motors and also Garrard 30 motors are still being made and fitted to these machines.
https://youtu.be/t3FQ1F03QUI

[Steve]

Yes, I will confess I have seen very few real horn machines. I'd love to have actually had a real HMV or Victor machine to compare against, but I have never seen one in the wild, much less had a chance to buy one (except for possibly at the only UK fair I am aware of, RetroTechUK).

It was me who said I doubted you'd seen many original HMV horn machines in the flesh so thank you for at least admitting my suspicion was correct. I hope you don't feel my criticism was unjustified.

Similar to you, where I live I have never seen an original horn machine for sale "in the wild" and although RetroTech does occasionally have sellers with them, it's not the best place to buy one in my honest opinion. If I had been reliant on finding local machines for sale these past 30 plus years my collection would be all of 2 items, including a tatty 101 portable and a Decca 50 portable.....not much to write home about then.

I have (far too) many original horn machines including HMV but most have been bought through auctions or Ebay. Do you look on the saleroom.com or Ebay? I think auctions are probably your best bet. I bought 2 last week but had to make an 8 hour round trip to collect them! Convenience is sadly not really an option when you're looking for original horn machines these days unless you live in the south-east or south-west of England and are a naturally lucky man!

It's also worth scouring continental Ebay and dealer websites on the continent. There are many riches to be found over there!

Good luck hunting.

PS - if you're planning to visit RetroTech this year, I'd be more than happy to meet up with you and bring along a good specimen HMV horn model for you to look at. I might even have a couple for sale - one biggie but "cheapie" with case polish restoration required and another immaculate example but with wooden horn so not exactly cheap!

No problem, it's fine. I take the criticism. My knowledge on external horn machines is certainly limited and really only confined to the cheap Swiss type and the modern fakes.

I am fortunate to have found quite a few mainly internal horn machines in my searching (many I have bought, many I have left), mainly at car boot sales and antique shops. I try not to look on ebay as I know from experience I just end up finding loads of things I'd like to buy, though I did buy one machine and a load of soundboxes on there when I first started collecting, which was only about 9 years ago.

I have been tempted by more traditional auctions too, but have avoided them so far for much the same reasons, but maybe in the future.

I do intend to be at RetroTechUK this year, so thanks for the very kind offer to meet up which I will happily take up. If you do have a 'cheapie' machines for sale, I certainly would be interested too, depending on whether I can afford it and whether I can convince my wife I need another machine
Thanks again.

No worries. I have sent you details via PM. As for whether you need another machine, you're a collector, so of course you do!
Anyway, you have already admitted you haven't got a HMV horn model so there's really no excuse not to buy!

[Marco Gilardetti]

Anyway, you have already admitted you haven't got a HMV horn model so there's really no excuse not to buy!

Sure, any good wife would appreciate such argument!

[mrrgstuff]

Anyway, you have already admitted you haven't got a HMV horn model so there's really no excuse not to buy!

Sure, any good wife would appreciate such argument!

It's certainly worth a try ..