How to disassemble mainspring barrel on Victor M

[jboger]

Jerry:

What I am writing right now is no more than 8 minutes--literally--after reading your post and responding to it. To be frank, I was being half-assed about trying to get that lid off. I did try heat, I did try a small dowel, and tapping around the edge with a small brass hammer, and soaking in kerosene--all that and the lid didn't come off.

Then I read your post. I said to myself, Give it another try. This time, John, cut a piece of dowel to a short length--none of this half-assed nonsense--and mount the barrel in your vise with a rag to protect it.

I gave it three raps. Nothing. I checked the vise. I held the barrel so it wouldn't shift. Gave the dowel three more raps. Bingo! Just like that the lid popped off.

There you have it. Couldn't have been more than 8 minutes, seriously, after reading your post. That's what you call inspiration.

I am a happy camper.

Photos are attached.

I think I can handle the rest. (let's hope so.)

John

[JerryVan]

Great!! Not so great that the spring is broken. It can be repaired, but perhaps new springs would be best.

[jboger]

Two springs have been ordered. Waiting.

[leels1]

Interesting post. I have a Snr. Monarch from France which I believe has the same motor as the Victor M. Apart from being very noisy when running (it’s as quiet as I can get it!), I don’t think one of the barrels has a lid at all. There’s nowhere to fix a lid, whilst the other barrel has a ridge where it sits. This is a three spring model though.

The grease doesn’t escape as the two barrels sit so closely together, but I wondered if this was normal as the op’s pictures and description indicate both barrels have lids?

[JerryVan]

Interesting post. I have a Snr. Monarch from France which I believe has the same motor as the Victor M. Apart from being very noisy when running (it’s as quiet as I can get it!), I don’t think one of the barrels has a lid at all. There’s nowhere to fix a lid, whilst the other barrel has a ridge where it sits. This is a three spring model though.

The grease doesn’t escape as the two barrels sit so closely together, but I wondered if this was normal as the op’s pictures and description indicate both barrels have lids?

I've seen several motors of this type with "missing" covers. I've also spoken with others who have seen the same. I'm very much led to wonder if this was by design, or was it a quick and sloppy practice of past repairmen to avoid the cumbersome lid and the added complication of installing it? With it gone, the spring barrel in question is ill supported and tends to flop around a bit. Hard to believe that it's meant to lean and rub against its neighboring barrel for support. Your mention of a barrel with no inset to accept a lid is even more puzzling.

[leels1]

Interesting post. I have a Snr. Monarch from France which I believe has the same motor as the Victor M. Apart from being very noisy when running (it’s as quiet as I can get it!), I don’t think one of the barrels has a lid at all. There’s nowhere to fix a lid, whilst the other barrel has a ridge where it sits. This is a three spring model though.

The grease doesn’t escape as the two barrels sit so closely together, but I wondered if this was normal as the op’s pictures and description indicate both barrels have lids?

I've seen several motors of this type with "missing" covers. I've also spoken with others who have seen the same. I'm very much led to wonder if this was by design, or was it a quick and sloppy practice of past repairmen to avoid the cumbersome lid and the added complication of installing it? With it gone, the spring barrel in question is ill supported and tends to flop around a bit. Hard to believe that it's meant to lean and rub against its neighboring barrel for support. Your mention of a barrel with no inset to accept a lid is even more puzzling.

It looks like it was like that from the factory. The motor seemed unmolested, but after 120 years I can’t have been the first into it since it was manufactured.
It doesn’t wobble about that I’ve noticed, although it is noisy because of the bevel gear. There is a tiny gap, about 1mm between the two barrels so they just clear each other.

[jboger]

One mainspring is now in the barrel.

I didn't assume either mainspring was properly installed. That meant I had to work from first principles starting with the direction one cranks up the machine--clockwise. The crank has a gear on its end, and this gear turns the winding gear attached to the barrel arbor. So if the crank gear rotates clockwise, the winding gear rotates anti-clockwise and so does the arbor. You get the picture.

This tells me how to insert one of the mainspring. Anyway, there are two mainsprings and two barrels. I asked myself, "Is there anyway one mainspring winds clockwise and the other anti-clockwise?" The answer to that became clear when I realized the second barrel mainspring winds completely first and only after it is wound, does the first barrel mainspring start to wind. In other words both mainsprings are not being wound simultaneously; only when one is wound does the other start to wind.

If I'm not mistaken, the second barrel with its mainspring fully wound inside then rotates completely several times while the first mainspring is being wound inside the first barrel. I will confirm this when I re-assemble the motor.

John

[jboger]

I think I'm reaching celebrity status. so I thought I post one more photo.

In order to insert the second mainspring, it is necessary to remove a small transverse pin, then the arbor within the arbor slides out. One must be careful when one works on things of this sort. You may be focussed on one end of the job, neglecting the other end, and before you know it--Murphy's Law. In this case, I needed to independently support the sliding internal abor, the one with the pin in it, otherwise I might damage (i.e. bend) something else.

I thought I might get proper support from my watchmaker's lathe, but I don't have any collets big enough to hold the arbor--around 3/8th inches in diam. So resorted to my vise again, and a cloth to protect the work. (I also spread a drop cloth below my work in case anything falls.) I was able to support both ends of the sliding arbor--the one with the pin through it--on top of the jaws of my vise. This gave me the support I needed and took off any possible stress on any other part of the barrel assembly.

Several taps with a light hammer on a nail punch--and nothing. The pin didn't budge. More taps--Nothing. This went on for a while. So I switched to a slightly heavier hammer. A sharper blow and--voila!--it moved (Isn't this fun?). More and more taps and a switch to a punch with a pointier point and finally, finally the pin came free. Here's the proof:

[JerryVan]

One mainspring is now in the barrel.

... I realized the second barrel mainspring winds completely first and only after it is wound, does the first barrel mainspring start to wind. In other words both mainsprings are not being wound simultaneously; only when one is wound does the other start to wind.


John

That's really not the case, John. There is a sort of balance going on between the two springs, with each spring getting wound simultaneously. As you wind the motor, you'll see one barrel begin to rotate, (the one without the gear teeth cut on it). As you're winding the spring within that barrel, the barrel rotation that you're seeing is also, at the same time, winding the 2nd spring in the "train".

Studying your spring barrels, I believe they were wound correctly to begin with. While looking into the open side of each barrel, both springs should spiral counterclockwise, starting from the center of the spring and working outwards.

[jboger]

Thanks, Jerry. Always informative. I'll take a look when I finish re-assembling the motor.

I came to the conclusion that both springs were originally inserted properly. In any case, they went back in with the same orientation. But the proof's in the pudding. I'll know for sure then I give the thing a spin.

John