Very Early (1800's ?) Gramophone Company gramophone

[poodling around]

I am being honest when I say I don't know much about this - so I wonder about the following:

Is it is entirely original ???

Is it is VERY collectable, rare and sought after ???

Is there some connection to 'Berliners' ?

There seems to be a restorable clark-Johnson sound-box ???

Is there a motor spring in there or is it just hand operated ???

Other (seemingly similar ?) better condition examples have sold for over £ 2,000 at auction so could this go for around £ 1,000 ???

Is this the model which appears in the famous HMV painting ?

I think it is very interesting in my personal opinion. Un-molested ('not restored)'. Just how I like to find gramophones. I would place this inside a glass case as it stands' and just gawp at it all day.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/157774843431 ... R878yfGjZw

[Steve]

Canon brake so not a "Trademark" in strict terms. It is a Style No. 5 and yes, even in appalling condition with most parts missing or reproduced, these fetch reasonable money.

I'll be honest, given their extreme limitations, I don't know why non-museum condition examples fetch quite so much.

I think it's 1901-2? Yes, there's a motor! I'm not sure the Clarke Johnson is original.

[jamiegramo]

This is a later Trademark style gramophone or style number 5 dating to the early 1900s and not 1897. Sometimes referred to as a Berliner especially in America if pre-Victor.

A style number 5 rather than an earlier example because it has the later top bolt brake which is missing. Best of luck finding that! An earlier example with the side brake is seen in the famous HMV painting.

Everything that is there looks original including the Clark Johnson soundbox which could be rebuilt. It is spring driven but the spring is missing.

What is there is very collectible and it wouldn’t surprise me if it sold for £500-£1000.

[poodling around]

Well, I thought that this could this go for around £ 1,000 - and it is now £ 1,002 ............ with 2 and a half days to go.

I guess that maybe £1,500 might have been a better estimate ?

83 people looked at it today and there have been 31 bids so far.

I will certainly be watching the final moments of this auction on Sunday.

[Steve]

Well, I thought that this could this go for around £ 1,000 - and it is now £ 1,002 ............ with 2 and a half days to go.

I guess that maybe £1,500 might have been a better estimate ?

83 people looked at it today and there have been 31 bids so far.

I will certainly be watching the final moments of this auction on Sunday.

A complete Trademark with repro horn and soundbox (possibly a couple of other small parts) sold for £1200 about 18 months at a real auction (not Ebay). This current one really isn't that rare or exciting. Complete trademarks, which this isn't in either sense, have also dropped down to £1700-2500 territory from a historically high level of £3500, so again, this is not special at all.

[poodling around]

Well, I thought that this could this go for around £ 1,000 - and it is now £ 1,002 ............ with 2 and a half days to go.

I guess that maybe £1,500 might have been a better estimate ?

83 people looked at it today and there have been 31 bids so far.

I will certainly be watching the final moments of this auction on Sunday.

A complete Trademark with repro horn and soundbox (possibly a couple of other small parts) sold for £1200 about 18 months at a real auction (not Ebay). This current one really isn't that rare or exciting. Complete trademarks, which this isn't in either sense, have also dropped down to £1700-2500 territory from a historically high level of £3500, so again, this is not special at all.

Ah, thank you very much steve as always.

Very interesting information indeed.

Perhaps I won't watch the final auction moments after all

[Steve]

Well, I thought that this could this go for around £ 1,000 - and it is now £ 1,002 ............ with 2 and a half days to go.

I guess that maybe £1,500 might have been a better estimate ?

83 people looked at it today and there have been 31 bids so far.

I will certainly be watching the final moments of this auction on Sunday.

A complete Trademark with repro horn and soundbox (possibly a couple of other small parts) sold for £1200 about 18 months at a real auction (not Ebay). This current one really isn't that rare or exciting. Complete trademarks, which this isn't in either sense, have also dropped down to £1700-2500 territory from a historically high level of £3500, so again, this is not special at all.

Ah, thank you very much steve as always.

Very interesting information indeed.

Perhaps I won't watch the final auction moments after all

No, you should watch it and maybe buy it to put in that display case. Remember?

The other issue that is the elephant in the room here but only affects the genuine "Trademark" version of the British "Berliner", is the fact that EMI itself has produced its own reproductions of this model over the years to commemorate various anniversaries, so along with various other reproductions, there are many examples out there and without seeing one in the flesh, I would never ever consider buying it from images on a screen, irrespective of who the seller was!

[JerryVan]

...so again, this is not special at all.

Say what you will, but it would be special to me.

[jamiegramo]

Some very fine trademark gramophone copies were made in Japan back in the 1970s, apparently indistinguishable from the real thing except using metric thread sizes. The later Indian copies were not so good or precise.

I think what is causing the high bidding on this machine is the Clark Johnson Soundbox. It’s what interests me the most. The front appears old and correct. Assuming the back is correct it only needs a diaphragm, screws and a repair to the broken stylus bar spring. I have written to the seller for a picture of the back of it. I think it was Steve who said, on another thread, that an original CJ soundbox might be worth a £1000. Other parts including the original horn support (about $200 in the US), the speed control plate ($100), Berliner turntable ($100), Spring Housing ($100) if you can find one… etc.

[Steve]

Some very fine trademark gramophone copies were made in Japan back in the 1970s, apparently indistinguishable from the real thing except using metric thread sizes. The later Indian copies were not so good or precise.

I think what is causing the high bidding on this machine is the Clark Johnson Soundbox. It’s what interests me the most. The front appears old and correct. Assuming the back is correct it only needs a diaphragm, screws and a repair to the broken stylus bar spring. I have written to the seller for a picture of the back of it. I think it was Steve who said, on another thread, that an original CJ soundbox might be worth a £1000.

I think you're right!

At one time a great condition CJ might possibly have been worth the money but I'm not so sure at the present time? Even so, what you've outlined, is far from an easy fix to my mind. If it was a complete, good condition and fully functional CJ soundbox, I might have been tempted myself but I don't trust the look of it from the photos, but more than that, I don't need anymore current projects!