Berliner Record Nut Question and Help

[gramophone78]

I have two early record nuts. The one on the right is a normal sized nut. The one on the left as you can see is far smaller. The main part of both appear to be made in the same form. The one on the right is without question Berliner. Does any member have any idea if the small one is also??. I have never seen a small version like this ever.
I would appreciate any and all comments on this if possible.

[gramophoneshane]

I'm afraid I cant help with the information you're after sorry Wayne, but I'd like to answer your question with a question if I may
Out of curiousity, what are the diametres of each record nut?
I've only been up close & personal with 3 original trademark style machines in the last 30 yrs, and 2 of those were in fairly large collections with so many goodies to look at, I didn't really take in finer details like the size of record nuts.

I know next to nothing about these machines, but I am wondering whether all 3 countries (USA, Canada & England) all used identical record nuts, or even if the smaller one might be the result of a cost cutting exercise for cheaper models that became available just before the record clamp became obsolete (like G&T's Style No.3 for example).
On the other hand, could it be a very early example that was soon replaced by the larger nut because they found it didn't do an adequate job securing the disc, or perhaps the smaller ones lead to record breakage because the pressure was concerntrated on a smaller surface area of the record?
But as I said, I know nothing about these early Berliner gramophones, so my suggestions above may be completely off base, but I suppose the only way to learn is to ask
Hopefully someone will recognise just what the smaller one belongs to & can educate us both.

[JohnM]

Could it be from a 'bandit' machine such as a Conn 'Double-Bell Wonder'? The one that passed through my hands briefly about 30 years ago was missing it's nut and the only other DBWs and 'Vitaphone' I've seen since have been heavily restored and sported Berliner-sized record nuts, IIRC.

[gramophone78]

Shane, the Berliner nut on the right in approx. 1 ¾" in diameter. the small one is just under 1 ½". I will put some pics together in the next day or so that shows the different US, Canadian nuts that I have.

John, I never thought of DBW or even Vitaphone.....?????. Maybe George will have an answer on this piece???.
Clearly it is original to some machine.

[phonogfp]

Well, I too have been derelict in failing to compare the record nuts on these various machines, but as John points out, most if not all Vitaphones and Double-Bell Wonders have been heavily restored and the originality of their various parts cannot always be certain.

The threads of record nuts vary between Columbia and Berliner/Victor. Are the threads of the two record nuts you pictured the same? As for the threads of DBW and Vitaphone record nuts, I cannot say.

George P.

[penman]

I think this board has been a great source of information of all things phonographic (or is it gramophonic [graphophonic?]). Here's my contribution of a picture of the record hold down that came with my '97 Berliner, it's 1 ⅞ " across and while it fits my later Victors, the threading does not seem to be exactly the same.

[gramophone78]

Penman, thanks for the post. I can confirm my '96-'97 Berliner record nut is also 1 ⅞" and is one piece brass also. When I pull my display case out, I will be able to take group pics of the variations.

[1923VictorFan]

This is probably a stupid question but why were record nuts even needed? I understand that they held the record securely in place but why was this necessary? Was record "slipage" really an issue on the earliest machines?

[gramophone78]

Well, first off '23 that is far from a stupid question and I'm glad you asked it. It all has to do with weight. You see (as I'm sure you know) the needle is on the record but, behind it is the reproducer, travel arm & metal fitting, elbow & horn. So, it all adds up. without the nut.....the record would not really move or very little at all or as you wrote "slip". Therefore, it is a very important little part of the machine.
This leads me to a question.......I could never understand why you see later & bigger Victor "rear mount" machines with a record nut????. Maybe, it was just habit for the company and that's why they were short lived on those machines....????.

[Valecnik]

.
This leads me to a question.......I could never understand why you see later & bigger Victor "rear mount" machines with a record nut????. Maybe, it was just habit for the company and that's why they were short lived on those machines....????.

I agree with your assessment G78, but also then why are there front mounts, even some pretty small ones, without a record nut? The Front mount M comes to mind. You can find it both with and without the nut...