Al Jolson's Phonograph

[David Spanovich]

Hi Mike:

After looking over the entire post string, I think the best advice given to you concerned establishing the Victrola's provenance. Since you know the names of some of the previous owners, you already have some of the information you need to pursue this.

I think if I were in your position, I'd try to contact the family of Lynn Dowdy to find out what auction house this was purchased from and when. Also try to find out if a receipt from that auction still exists in any paperwork saved by the family.

If it was a major auction house--and it probably would have been for something of this stature--it would likely have an archived record of all sales, even one going back several decades. This information, in turn, could give you the name or names of any previous owners, allowing you--eventually--to trace the Victrola to it's original owner.

Until such provenance can be established, about the best you can do is to reword the listing to state "may have been owned by Al Jolson, based on the information provided to me..." or something of that nature. This would protect you from possible further action from a buyer who takes it upon himself to trace the Victrola's provenance and discovers that it either cannot be verified, or that it was not owned by Al Jolson.


HTH,
DS

[jukejunkie]

As an appraiser of jewelry and antiques for over 30 years I can without hesitation state unless you have provenance in writing from a verifiable source, the best you can state is "purported to belong to".

All other claims even if true are pure hearsay and cannot be stated as fact.

That goes for Mary Pickford's perfume bottles as well.

[Mike McKelvy]

Can't you people stop already? Yes I agree with you on the importance of provenance, however why are you people so obsessed about other things I have bought or am selling on Ebay????? Can you answer that credenza26 ????? You never replyed when I asked you why you were so concerned about me buying a shirt on Ebay. And now you Juke, bring up my Mary Pickford bottles I am currently selling, which I originally bought at the Mary Pickford auction several years ago. I have a very good reputation with many antique dealers and have 100% positive feedback on Ebay. Are you people SICK????? WHY are you obsessed with finding these things out about me?????

[brianu]

ha... I thought the reference to the mary pickford perfume bottles was actually just a joke.

[Uncle Vanya]

Mr. McKelvey, there are many here who are quick to point out what they feel to be sharp practice on the part of a seller. Some are perhaps a trifle too sensitive regarding such purported practice.

Your machine created a great deal of interest here some months ago when you first offered it for sale, but the fact that it was a Victor machine purported to have been owned by a Brunswick artist raised a number of questions. I suspect that someone who was interested in the machine may have attempted to do some research of his own into its provenance, and was disappointed with what he found. Of course, anything may be taken to an extreme.

Many would tend to agree with your assertion that the comment about the shirt was gratuitous, but on the other hand if a seller has been offering a number of items with an unsupported celebrity provenance that fact may be considered to be material in the determination of how much credence to give to such claims.

I personally deplore the accusatory tone of some of the other posts. Such a tone is unhelpful in the extreme, as it does little to shed light on the question at hand, and can be perceived as needlessly insulting to the seller.

Would it not be better to assume in this case that the seller truly believes his claims of celebrity ownership? The the question then is how can we help the seller substantiate them. I've noted a few points which have not been previously posted here, to wit:

1) The Victor machine dates to between late 1931 and 1933.

2) IN this period, Al Jolson was an exclusive Brunswick artist. He had not had any
association with Victor Talking Machine since the Great War period.

3) Brunswick Records was at this time owned by Consolidated Film Industries, a
company which did not produce phonographs. The Warner Brothers leased Brunswick
Records to CFI, but the sold the Brunswick Radio and Phonograph company to
Mersman Brothers, an entirely unrelated firm.

4) SO at the time that this machine may have been presented or sold, Brunswick
Records had no portable or home phonograph offerings.

5) At this time, the Columbia company was also in disarray, and had discontinued
the manufacture of its own excellent portables, offering only inferior machines
made by Prime.

6) Therefore, the only truly satisfactory portable phonograph offered on the American
market at this time was the RCA Victor 2-65. This being the case, if one wished
to present a portable phonograph to a prominent artist, or if a great star
cared to purchase a portable phonograph, the RCA Victor 2-65 would be the logical
choice.


So, it is not impossible that Mr. Jolson owned the machine in question. It may be probable, but in the world of celebrity items a better documented chain of ownership back to the celebrity increases value and improves saleability. You have been offered some excellent advice by Mr. Spanovich regarding the proper establishment of provenance. I would think that you would want to follow it up.

Provenance is a tricky thing, you know. Some years ago my Father-in-law presented Beverly Sills with a
Sevres tea service which had been made for the legendary Lola Montez. The documentation that he offered with the set was detailed, and traced its ownership back to the factory. Failing this it would have just been a nice '60's tea set with an interesting monogram. We still have a handkercheif that he was given by Miss Geraldine Farrar, one which would be of little value or interest save for the associated letter which states that "While I no longer have any of my costumes, I did just last week find a few of these
handkercheifs which had been run up by Worth, and which I used on stage as part of my costume in Mignion

Some of us ARE just trying to be helpful.

[OrthoSean]

Some of us ARE just trying to be helpful.

I think almost everyone here is trying to be helpful. I have just two observations to add here. Many times, posts come across as nothing more than words, it's very easy for others to misconstrue the tone of a post if you don't know the poster. I think this speaks for itself. That said, I think Mike is being very over-reactive here, 4 pages of ranting and raving over something very simple, there is NO WRITTEN PROOF this machine was Jolson's, yes, it could have been, nobody is saying it isn't possible, but it just isn't likely (that's MY opinion).

Now, can everyone just calm down a little, please?

Sean

[Mike McKelvy]

Uncle and Vanya, I AM very greatful to everyone's positive input, but YES I do get upset over the trivial things that people come up with. Uncle I do plan on getting in touch with my friend to see if the wife of the original owner can shed anymore light on this or see if she knows what auction house this originally came from. I want to say I am truly appreciative of those that have given me so much information, but I am also a little bit leary now of putting up any new posts. I have some very rare phonograph related things in my collection, which I am not selling and wanted to share these things here. One being an absolutely gorgeous phonograph in a Louis the something style art case once owned by Sarah Bernhardt. The cabinet is gold with cherubs angels and lots of ornate carvings, but I am not going to put up any new threads, at least for now.

[brianu]

I think I'm taking my toys home for now as well.

[briankeith]

I'll share all my toys with you brianu if you share wiith me?

[1926CredenzaOwner]

Can't you people stop already? Yes I agree with you on the importance of provenance, however why are you people so obsessed about other things I have bought or am selling on Ebay????? Can you answer that credenza26 ????? You never replyed when I asked you why you were so concerned about me buying a shirt on Ebay.

Mike, I don't feel like typing the entire response I posted earlier to your question, so I'll just quote the post that you obviously didn't bother to read:

I posted that because you were complaining about being "bad off financially." Your recent purchase history on eBay indicates that you are not, therefore one can assume that you are using this tactic to garner a higher price for your item. Sellers do it all the time when they're trying to sell something, and it really has nothing to do at all with the item. Truthfully... I did think twice about posting the link to draw attention to that purchase, but generally, people who are "very bad off financially" do not spend $139.00 on a single shirt.

I don't think I can provide you with a more concise and simple answer than that.

I have some very rare phonograph related things in my collection, which I am not selling and wanted to share these things here. One being an absolutely gorgeous phonograph in a Louis the something style art case once owned by Sarah Bernhardt. The cabinet is gold with cherubs angels and lots of ornate carvings, but I am not going to put up any new threads, at least for now.

Why is it when someone says something like this, I hear this song?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5y5_JIDQu0[/youtube]

(I couldn't find the world's smallest violin, so the world's smallest player piano will have to do.)

Mike, after you literally calling me a "stalker" and implying I'm "sick" for looking up things anybody with half a brain could find on the internet, I wouldn't give two flips if I ever saw another post from you anywhere on this forum. So, post away without concern for me commenting on your threads.

I wash my hands of this. Mike's obviously not taking any of our advice about provenance to heart based on his recent listings. Beating a dead horse gets you nowhere.