Correct reproducer for ERJ Monarch?

[penman]

We might be able to extrapolate a little, but as George P. always correctly points out dating is NOT an exact science. In some previous threads there was a posting about an early ERJ Exhibition with a serial # of 1465. I have a similar style of Exhibition, but VTM marked with a serial # of 2354. This makes it likely (or probable but not definite ) that fewer than 2000 ERJ Exhibitions were produced before Oct/Nov. 1901. Not knowing production/sales rates in 1901 makes it hard to figure exactly but it couldn't have been for more than a few months that ERJ Exhibitions were made.

It would be interesting to know the serial # of the Concert on the ERJ Monarch. Low numbers would certainly put it closer to 1901.

[DrGregC]

Thanks to all who have responded.

As many have stated, defining the correct parts for the early machines is a bit of guesswork. Of all of the phono companies, VTM spoiled us because they evolved into a well-run company where parts, numbers, and machines all fit a pattern and were very predictable. I think it might be worthwhile to think in terms of the fledgling VTM company in 1901.

The early design Monarch was made in small numbers (3500) in 1901. The Victor Talking Machine Co. became incorporated in October 1901. I am sure that by the later part of 1901, there were parts branded both ERJ and VTM sitting on the factory workbenches. In the case of the early Monarch on eBay, the tag reads "Victor Talking Machine Co." and the reproducer is a VTM branded Concert. My machine is tagged "Eldridge R. Johnson" but the reproducer is branded VTM. By their appearance, both Monarchs are early and made in 1901. I suspect the earliest machines had all ERJ components and, as the transition took place, VTM components were substituted as the ERJ parts were used up. I think the process in 1901 was a little less rigid and more fluid than the Victor Company we came to know and love in later years. I believe there are many versions of the 1901 Monarch that can claim to be complete and original. From my observation, not too many of these machines have survived intact. They are all an important part of the history of the Victor company.

[gramophone78]

Seems like it's all good info to me. Now, with regard to a value on these early machines.....I would have to think a "ERJ" machine with a "ERJ" reproducer will command a much higher premium. I only say this as there are so many more "VTM" reproducers out there. This however, is my opinion on the "value" issue.

[Henry]

Henry, could you satisfy my curiosity - - where did you see the claim that the Exhibition was introduced in 1904?
George P.

Good question, George. Lame answer: I know I read this claim "somewhere," but I can't seem to locate "somewhere" at the moment. There is, however, a strong circumstantial connection between the name "Exhibition'" and the Louisiana Purchase Exhibition, held in St. Louis in 1904 (note that they were one year late with this centennial, which properly was 1903). I also know that VTMC won a number of prizes and endorsements at St. Louis; see http://www.davidsarnoff.org/vtm/fg17_pg48.html. However, Baumbach's LFTD and VDB both list models with #11 Exhibitions as early as 1903. I'll continue to search for a source for my La. Purchase/1904 assertion, but unless and until I find same, please consider my statement FWIW (IOW, not substantiated).

I think I would have been on firmer ground if I had said, "The Exhibition, in its most familiar, fully evolved state, i.e., #11/12, was introduced no earlier than 1903," based on Baumbach. But even that statement is imperfect, since the triangular needle holder was not introduced until 1909.

Pardon me while I clean the [bleep] off of my shoes....

[phonogfp]

I think I would have been on firmer ground if I had said, "The Exhibition, in its most familiar, fully evolved state, i.e., #11/12, was introduced no earlier than 1903," based on Baumbach. But even that statement is imperfect, since the triangular needle holder was not introduced until 1909.

Pardon me while I clean the [bleep] off of my shoes....

I don't think your shoes are that dirty, are they? I was only wondering if some website was claiming this late date for the Exhibition sound box's introduction. I too imagined that perhaps someone decided that "Exhibition" had something to do with St. Louis in 1904, but if so, they forgot the 1901 Pan-American in Buffalo. In any event, there's plenty of contemporary evidence to prove that Exhibition sound boxes were indeed around in 1901.

By the way - it would even be possible to find an ERJ Exhibition equipped with a triangular needle chuck, since Victor offered the chuck as a retrofit for existing sound boxes! What a world, what a world, what a world...!

George P.

[DrGregC]

In response to penman's question, here are the VTM reproducer serial numbers:

1) The eBay Monarch (VTM): 33636
2) My Monarch (ERJ): 52825

I have no idea how the numbering sequence worked on these reproducers. They both seem like high numbers but maybe the numbers also represent the date and place of manufacture. Hopefully, the experts can offer some base of reference for the numbering of Concert reproducers.

[penman]

Greg:

Thanks for the information. I'm not sure if anyone has attempted to figure out how the serial numbers on soundboxes relate to approximate manufacture dates. I have an ERJ concert soundbox with a 9400 number. Another ERJ on ebay in the past had a 2300 number. I recall seeing a concert for taper arm on ebay a while back that had a number in the 19000 range. Going WAY out on a limb if the numbers are in sequence for front mount and taper that would put that one no earlier than 1903. How many were produced either as original equipment or as spares or upgrades I'm afraid we'll never know for sure. I don't know that I've ever seen a number more than 5 digits for a Concert, but I'm guessing they probably lost popularity by 1910 (give or take 5 yrs. ), and how many sat in inventory after that. Maybe George P. can shed more light on the numbering of Exhibitions, but I assume that they continually reset the numbers adding a letter after each reset, similar to the stampers.

I'm not sure how others feel, but I enjoy these discussions on collecting arcana, hopefully it stimulates research and discussion. I will not attempt to get into the question of relative value for all these variations, except to say that I think it's highly personal, and there is no absolutely right or wrong ( Except for franko/crapophones, and that painted VTLA on ebay now)

[phonogfp]

Maybe George P. can shed more light on the numbering of Exhibitions, but I assume that they continually reset the numbers adding a letter after each reset, similar to the stampers.

I'm not sure how others feel, but I enjoy these discussions on collecting arcana, hopefully it stimulates research and discussion.

I've never done any substantial research on this, so I can't offer much more. Wish I knew more about this.

I agree that discussions like these are interesting, thought-provoking, and educational. Thanks to everyone for sharing their observations!

George P.

[phonohound]

I thought I should mention I have a VTM Exhibition with a serial # 1806 that came on a rigid-arm machine. I know this to be possible because the distance between the holes on the back of the reproducer are not the same as a taper arm-model.

Scott