Indestructible Celluloid fire and 100 year old Mold Danger?

[NEFaurora]

This topic has been moved from a previous unrelated thread so it can have its own thread and place here. Your thoughts and input are heavily welcomed on the subject.


You know, Sansenoi (Previous poster) brings up a great question, I have been wondering this for years. Since Indestructibles are made of celluloid, What kind of Fire Hazard do they pose today??? I know that Early Celluloid projection film is highly flammable, and can actually spontaneously combust if stored at the wrong temperatures or if it is stored next to or too close to other celluloid film.

This subject is definately worthy of investigation, and perhaps some fire tests! My father used to do plastic tests for Underwriter's labratories (UL), The 100 year old testing company in Melville, Long Island. He is quite healthy and active today at 75, Perhaps I will grab some cylinders and run some basic FIRE tests on them with his assistance.

You know, We don't think about it much, but we deal with cylinders that could have dangerous flammable materials and/or Dangerous molds and spores. (Can you say the 1917 Spanish Influeza that was worldwide?) - That was supposedly caused by some pig farms in Kentucky and in France that somehow contaminated humans and spread like wildfire over the world population and lasted over a year. I'm not trying to be the CDC here, but just trying to raise some questions of awareness. Did you know that Deadly mold spores that were 5000 years old actually killed some people opening Egyptian tombs? Who knows what is lurking in those 100 year old Cylinder tubes??

This stuff does'nt make me lose any sleep or keep me up at night nor should it do the same for you, but it does bug me a bit and warrant a word of caution and question things..

What are your thoughts on this subject? This stuff has been bugging me for a long time, and I'm surprised that I have'nt seen anyone raise the subject before.

I can't really conduct any real mold examinations or tests, I'm not the CDC, but Fire tests, That I can do!

For now, It won't stop me from searching for cylinders at local shows or on the internet, But who knows what dangers we are exposing ourselves to?? Fire Dangers?? Mold Dangers?? Your thoughts????



Tony K.

[gramophoneshane]

No fire danger with celluloid cylinders unless you're playing them with lit matches. Celluloid film self ignites due to chemical reactions between the celluloid & chemicals that make the images. Cylinders dont have these chemicals applied to the celluloid so they will never suddenly catch fire by themselves.
I wouldn't worry too much about mold spores either, though it's probably not healthy to eat cylinder mold in large amount on a regular basis

[NEFaurora]

Some how, That makes me feel a whole lot better!

I still want to do the Fire tests though on various cylinders, and report back!

Tony K.

[Sansenoi]

I would say that celluloid cylinders of age pose less risk of fire than new ones. I would imagine that their cobustability decreases with its offgassing over time and that they are less flamable than old film because they contain no silver as a catalyst to combustion. Then again, you never know exactly what went into the mix of old celluloid cylinders. They could be more flammable. I just don't know.

My concern with celluloid cylinders would be storing several of them in proximity to exposed steel. As they offgas over time, they cause nearby metal to rust at a high rate. This may be minimal where one old cylinder (years of offgassing) is involved in a ventilated situation but, storing several of them in a cabinet type situation with a talking machine of value where there is no ventilation may cause some rust that wouldn't have happened otherwise. (especially if you are storing them in a hot place like a storage garage or attic)

This celluloid/rust effect is a real problem among people who collect knives that were made during times where celluloid was used as imitation handles. One thing that has been noted in that situation is that the darker the celluloid, the more inert binders it has and thus, it doesn't deteriorate and rust metal as fast. One might conclude that a black cylinder would pose less problem than a lighter colored one.

I still wouldn't want to be the first to use a celluloid ashtray!

If you are wanting to test old celluloid and its current flammability, celluloid was used to make things like old type eyeglasses, combs and billiards. Perhaps using a slice of a 100 year old billiard ball would sufice but again, I don't know exactly what else was used in celluloid cylinders either.

Hope that helps.

[penman]

Celluloid (cellulose nitrate) is highly inflammable (or as Dr. Nick so eloquently put it "who knew inflammable meant flammable!") no matter what state it's in or how old it is. The flammability is not due to any gases present when new, but to the actual stable material. Combine cellulose nitrate (or any nitrate) with heat and an oxidizing agent (air), and before you you know what's happening WHOOSH!! It can go up in a ball of flame so fast it's like flash paper. The fact that the plastic is a stable material means that under normal conditions it's safe, and it really takes a flame to get it going, not just a hot attic.

If anyone has a suicidal desire to see what happens, DO IT OUTSIDE away from anything combustable and in a flameproof container. Now it's possible that some flame retardant materials have been added that would prevent combustion, but I don't know. What I do know (from experience) is even those nice fancy colored celluloid fountain pens from the 30's when heated too much go up like a roman candle. In the 1940's cellulose acetate replaced the nitrate in plastics and film stock because it was non-flammable.

[Sansenoi]

Well, there ya' have it.

Celluloid cylinders fire risk :

Do try to listen to them
Do not try to smoke them (disregard if they made cylinders from hemp at one time)

As to 1917 influenza being on a phonograph?I think we're safe even though it wasn't a mold but a virus. That is unless it was somehow frozen for almost 100 years then, maybe it could be a problem.

All kidding aside, this is an interesting topic.

Perhaps when the G-man comes with their tommy guns for your collection of contraband cylinders you know exactly how to dispose of them.

[NEFaurora]

This has been an excellent thread..

I think that we just went through the Thomas Edison School of Celluloid Chemistry 101!!

I do remember that old celluloid film did contain Nitro Cellulose and Silver Nitrate which were not good for Flammability!!! Glad to hear that our Cylinders do not contain any of that!

I will try to record some tests with my Ipod and see if I can link them here soon..

Thanks guys!

Tony K.

[gramophoneshane]

There seems to be more concern amongst collectors about reaming blue Amberols, as some think the plaster may contain asbestos as a binding agent. We had a member here who was going to get a few cylinders tested, but we never heard any results.
I kind of doubt the plaster does contain asbestos, but it doesn't hurt to take appropriate precautions when reaming BA's, just in case.

[Swing Band Heaven]

Not sure about celluloid cyliners but I have burnt nitrate film. I didn't think it was worth the risk of moving house with it so I burnt it in a big metal tin - it certainly went up with a whoosh!

There are videos on you tube of people buring reels of nitrate film. Here is one. If you want to skip to what burning nitrate film can really look like then skip forward to about 4.30. It sounds like a rocket taking off!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEz_a-Akufk[/youtube]

[Victrolacollector]

Very interesting thread, those thoughts have also crossed my mind from time to time, you never know what materials were really used of if their may be a mold or virus dormant. However, I have always been concerned there could be lead risks with old pot metal in reproducers, or what about radiation from some kind of uranium or metal that may give off a gas or something. I would say this is probably not the case with most victor victrolas, but those off brand machines could be a problem. not for sure just saying...