78 record wear

[kirtley2012]

Hey guys!
I think ive found it out, going through my records i realised that the ones i play with a mica soundbox (hmv no4) had the beginnings of white grooves i.e was wearing out but the ones played with a metal diaphragm soundbox (columbia no5 or now a meltrope 3) have no wear after the first play with a steel needle, i have adjusted the meltrope to be very light at the stylus bar so it can easily handle the bass and any heavy grooves so my records shouldnt wear out as much now! (Hopefully!)

[Phono48]

I have adjusted the meltrope to be very light at the stylus bar so it can easily handle the bass and any heavy grooves so my records shouldnt wear out as much now! (Hopefully!)

Sorry to disillusion you, Alec, but if you have lightened any soundbox to play at less weight than it was designed to play at, you will cause more wear, not less, as the needle will not be sitting in the groove correctly, and will cause the sides of the groove to wear away. A great deal of thought went into the design of these soundboxes, so I take the view that they should do what they were designed to do, and accept that record wear is inevitable, unless you're going to play them on modern equipment, Heaven forbid!

Barry

[kirtley2012]

No, not lightened it in that way, ive adjusted it so that the stylus bar runs smoothly with very little pressure on it which would restrict the movement of the diaphragm, i havent physically lightened it!
alex

[Phono48]

Ah, right, then you've only improved the performance. I posted my reply because I went to see a colleague recently who had done an "improvement"on his Columbia upright grand gramophone. He had installed a coil of sprung steel round the centre of the arm, where the crook meets the main piece, and put a stop on the crook so that as the soundbox was placed on the record, the spring came into play, and lessened the weight of the soundbox, which, by the time the needle contacted the record, was about 12 grams! He did admit though, that it sounded a bit "wooly". It would do, with the needle bouncing around at that weight!

Barry

[dd2u]

All playing wears records.

Even the laser turntable, which does not touch the grooves whilst playing, requires that the disc be cleaned carefully beforehand, and this itself can reportedly damage some records. I fear any chemist charged with ensuring these artefacts last for a century would look at the composition of some "shellac" discs, and shudder at the thought of adding water and abrasion.

Lightweight electrical playback still wears the record. The amount depends on the disc composition, recording, stylus, cartridge, tracking weight, and the quality of the arm itself. It is certainly possible to minimise the wear of shellac discs to the point that most people would find it irrelevant, but I am sure that it is always detectable via some means.

I have found some records exhibit audible wear due to repeated playing with a fibre, if subsequently replayed electrically. Sometimes the audible wear is quite objectionable after a few plays, other times it remains inaudible after tens of plays. I believe the composition of the disc surface itself is the key factor, but do not claim to understand this. The worst discs will still sound perfectly fine played yet again with a fibre long after they sound terrible played electrically.

I have heard some collectors swear that playing a pre 1939 disc with a well tuned HMV 5A sound box and a tungstyle needle causes no wear. I cannot believe this myself.

Whenever collectors claim that steel needles cause no real damage to <some> records under <some> circumstances, I can only conclude that they have never properly compared a real mint record with one that has been played carefully with steel needles several times. Or if they have, they have only done the comparison by playing the record yet again with a steel needle, rather than using a high quality magnetic cartridge and optimum stylus to extract the most possible information from those old grooves.

The quality of recording on many 78s is simply astounding. Using steel needles wears this quality away, even if this is not noticeable when the only reproduction is using steel needles!

You must ask yourself why you are collecting records. Is it to experience music through gramophones in exactly the same way as people did many years ago? Is it to hear that music in the best way now possible? Is it to preserve that music for future generations? Are you more interested in the object itself than the music it contains?

I take the view that the hobby should be fun, but that you should not damage anything that is irreplaceable. You have to play 78s on your gramophones; I think there would be no point to owning them otherwise (others may disagree). However, you do not have to play ALL your 78s on gramophones, certainly not with steels needles, certainly not every day. You must judge where you draw the line.

Except in special circumstances, I only play duplicates with a steel needle. I will play most things with a fibre or thorn, but only if it will sound good. I will play anything electrically. Unless the disc is early or rare or wonderful, I will have little interest in it if it cannot be played well electrically.

Others take the exact opposite view on all counts.

I do sometimes wonder how many copies of each record still exist, and equally what the chances are that I will ever own a given disc. As I alluded to in another thread, with so many hundreds of thousands of different titles out there, many tens of thousands of which would have some appeal or interest, I do not see the need to be obsessive over a single disc (though one cannot avoid having favourites!).

Remember though that we need to enjoy the hobby, and communicate that enjoyment to others. Without that, it will not matter one jot if every record from the 1900s exists in perfect condition if no one is interested in listening to any of them.

[kirtley2012]

I just want to make my records last as long as possible, im not bothered about when they leave my collection, i just want them to stay in good condition, so what your saying is play records on my gramophones but just not too much (possibly mostly the pre worn ones, earlier ones and less collectible records) and mostly play records on modern equipment?, at the moment i only have access to steel needles so that is partially why i was worried about wear

[Nat]

You must ask yourself why you are collecting records. Is it to experience music through gramophones in exactly the same way as people did many years ago? Is it to hear that music in the best way now possible? Is it to preserve that music for future generations? Are you more interested in the object itself than the music it contains?

Excellent points!

I probably collect for all flour reasons, though the first one appeals least. I simply find that the old records sound better if played on a well-tuned gramophone/phonograph: all modern renderings I have heard alter something and lose something (though thank goodness the recordings are being preserved this way), but at the end of the day, I collect for the music or artist.

That said, I believe I take scrupulous care to clean records and keep them clean, and because I have so many, any give record is played perhaps several times when "new," but over all, rather seldom. However, my next goal is to get a Rek-O-Kut variable speed turntable/arm, and do some, if not most, re-playing that way. I have a Mac pre-amp/amp that allows some pretty good equalizing, and I confess to guilt feelings when I play a really old or rare record with a steel needle.

Nat

[estott]

A thorn or fibre needle is likely to generate more heat than a steel one.

Steel is a good conductor of heat. Wood is not.

I have even heard it said that the heat generated by a thorn or fibre needle can damage the groove walls of a record, but I would have thought that damage might only occur if the needle was not hard enough or not sharp enough.

The debate as to which needles are the best is as old as the hobby.

I think the only way a needle could possibly heat the grooves enough to cause damage is if the record is played repeatedly without a break. I've heard some cautions not to repeat the same side immediately. Probably all hogwash.

[wjw]

Hey guys!
I think ive found it out, going through my records i realised that the ones i play with a mica soundbox (hmv no4) had the beginnings of white grooves i.e was wearing out but the ones played with a metal diaphragm soundbox (columbia no5 or now a meltrope 3) have no wear after the first play with a steel needle, i have adjusted the meltrope to be very light at the stylus bar so it can easily handle the bass and any heavy grooves so my records shouldnt wear out as much now! (Hopefully!)

I wanted to ask if you are using a post-1925 machine with the Meltrope and HMV. Nearly all pre 1925 machines have a ridiculous amount of tracking error- especially at the beginning of a 12 inch record and even more so with machines sporting the shorter tone-arms. I can't subject a nice copy of a recording to a steel needle on a pre-1925 machine for just that reason. I will never understand why Victor (for example) didn't address this very obvious problem until the Western Electric boys showed them the way in 1925.
The cactus thorn offers better fidelity and wear resistance than the bamboo needle. I've used them for years.-Auld Bill in Fla.

[kirtley2012]

Yes i am, im using a hmv 31 but the tracking is quite good on it!