Question about XVI (XV)

[OrthoSean]

Maybe in 1921, but we're talking 1913 here. I never said he imported everything, either, as we've already covered differences and some possible exceptions. But why wouldn't they import cabinets and other sundries if it was cheaper? HMV used imported Victor parts for a long time. I certainly saw many dozens of Candian Berliner / Victor "Victrolas" during my college years up north and, again, other than the additonal tag, most were identical to what we have here. I'm talking about VV-IV, VI, VIII, IX, XI, XIV and XVIs, not the orthophonics, which I know are a completely different story.

Sean

[gramophone78]

Maybe in 1921, but we're talking 1913 here. I never said he imported everything, either, as we've already covered differences and some possible exceptions. But why wouldn't they import cabinets and other sundries if it was cheaper? HMV used imported Victor parts for a long time. I certainly saw many dozens of Candian Berliner / Victor "Victrolas" during my college years up north and, again, other than the additonal tag, most were identical to what we have here. I'm talking about VV-IV, VI, VIII, IX, XI, XIV and XVIs, not the orthophonics, which I know are a completely different story.

Sean

Sorry Sean, I added to my previous post while you placed this one. If you find any info regarding this....please let us know and I will do the same.
To keep the thread on track.....I think $500 for a Victrola 16 is a little high. However as mentioned, it has the binders. Finding these is any form of decent condition will be a challenge. So, that is a plus. On the other side...I have seen Victrola 17's on CL for as little as $400. A machine (IMO) that is much finer.
As said may times on this forum.....the worth is really what the buyer and seller are happy with and no one else. A Victrola 16 may be worth $500 on the East coast and $200 on the West.
It all boils down to you.

[Mr Grumpy]

I'm actually loving the off topic - very interesting and more information than I could have hoped for.

If I may add to the discussion (and I'm new to this so go easy on me),
All the usual Berliner Badged Victrolas that have passed my way have always had serial numbers which
seem to correspond perfectly with the data provided on the Victor-Victrola page.
If they were producing them here, would they have reserved blocks of numbers?
The XVI I linked to has a serial number that falls right in line with the features of the machine,
it even has the 'E' suffix. How did they do this?

[gramophone78]

I'm actually loving the off topic - very interesting and more information than I could have hoped for.

If I may add to the discussion (and I'm new to this so go easy on me),
All the usual Berliner Badged Victrolas that have passed my way have always had serial numbers which
seem to correspond perfectly with the data provided on the Victor-Victrola page.
If they were producing them here, would they have reserved blocks of numbers?
The XVI I linked to has a serial number that falls right in line with the features of the machine,
it even has the 'E' suffix. How did they do this?

I'm going to let Sean answer this one. All I can add is we had a discussion on this very issue in another thread.
Technically I only deal with external horn models. However, if you take the Vic.4 numbers in LFD 33,055. I have and have seen Canadian Vic.4's with 40,***+ numbers. This tells me that Berliner had his own number system. I would not be surprised if there is a US Victrola 16 with that same number somewhere.... .

[OrthoSean]

Actually, interesting the serial number topic came up. From all the recent stuff that we've been seeing, I'm almost certain that serial numbers were not used "twice". I'll look at my XVI E when I get home and report the SN. I'm still under the impression that specifically Canadian machines had serial numbers that had a "C" prefix. Even the type of print used on those data plates is completely different than what was used here. That XVI in Hamilton has a plate and "font" exactly the same as we had here. I don't think that's any coincedence. Alang had a VV-VI posted recently with the same thing and Whooptinola posted an earlier XIV with again the same thing. I see a pattern.

Sean

[OrthoSean]

Just a quick update, my style "E" XVI is SN 70232.

Sean

[gramophone78]

Just a quick update, my style "E" XVI is SN 70232.

Sean

Sean, what does this tell us??. Why did/do you think Canadian machine's have a "C" on the data plate??. LFD mentions nothing about the numbers including Canada or even Mexico and further South.
As I stated and based on LFD's Victor IV numbers.....they do not include Canada. I own two that are above the 33.055 number claiming to be produced. One at 38,*** and another at 41,***. I also had another Vic.IV that was 28,*** and Canadian made. That means it is within the number Baumbach claims were made.
Sounds like a mystery to me... .
I should mention that both of my IV's are with US type plates not later aluminum and the font is the same as US models.
Here is my Victrola 17's plate #6144. Anyone out there have one with a number close??. I'm curious??.

[OrthoSean]

I think your photo answers some of your own questions. Notice the Victor Plate says Camden, NJ on it and the tacked on Berliner plate says "sole distributors"?

I looked over the Victor Data Book last night and Baumbach indicates that most Canadian Victrolas were manufactured here, but NOT all. This is what I was saying all alone. I'm still not convinced that a Victrola with a regular non-"C" serial number would have come from Montreal. It doesn't make any sense, not that a lot of this does.

Sean

[gramophone78]

I think your photo answers some of your own questions. Notice the Victor Plate says Camden, NJ on it and the tacked on Berliner plate says "sole distributors"?

I looked over the Victor Data Book last night and Baumbach indicates that most Canadian Victrolas were manufactured here, but NOT all. This is what I was saying all alone. I'm still not convinced that a Victrola with a regular non-"C" serial number would have come from Montreal. It doesn't make any sense, not that a lot of this does.

Sean

Yes, I too have noticed the plates. However, the same plates are on the two Vic. 4's I used as an example. Again, the real mystery is the two machines are out of range to the LFD numbers.
I'm still having trouble thinking Berliner would pay shipping and taxes, duty to have machines brought up to Canada just to place in retail stores. Even having empty cabinets shipped up only to find hardware not fitting right...???.
I will go over a Canadian book I have tonight and see if any more light can be place on this.
I will also pull out my binders in my 17 ( my only Victrola ) and see what the paper label states. I do know that all my Victor/Berliner horn machines have Canadian paper labels on the bottom and with the scribing angel logo.
Last, why would Berliner even have a large factory (not warehouse) in Montreal and have a new larger one built as late as 1921??. Certainly not to store machines from the US.... .
A very interesting thread here...I think. Sorry if we are boring some of our members.
I will let you know what I find.

[whoopinola]

This ID tag is off of a VV-210..It's half hid under the turn table