Question about cylinder machines

[ImperialGuardsman]

I am under the impression that cylinder machines (such as the Edison Standard, Triumph, etc.) tend to have problems with maintaining a consistent speed whilst playing, resulting in "warble." Would you say this is an inherent problem in cylinder phonograph design or is it just a matter of correct adjustment? I always like to learn more.

Thanks,
Nicholas J. Williams

[Jerry B.]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a cylinder machine. The human ear is very sensitive to changes in pitch. The cylinder industry would never have been successful with such problems. An indication of faithful Edison customers is the number of two minute machines that were converted to play four minute cylinders. I've never even considered that one format was more dependable or better than another. I've always believed the disk won out because it had better volume and ease of storage. (Was that from Tinfoil to Stereo? The cylinder and disk formats competed for twenty plus years. How long did Beta last?

I started a thread about my Edison Fireside. I suspect that particular machine sat neglected for decades. One governor spring and weight was missing. I removed the entire governor and disassembled, cleaned, and oiled the governor and pivot points. I found a matching weight and spring and installed it on the governor. I oiled the governor pads and a few other points. I took the upper works completely apart and cleaned and oiled everything. I put everything back together and made a belt. Once I got the speed adjusted properly, the Fireside played a cylinder with a 14" horn riding on the reproducer. I've always thought the ability to successfully play a cylinder with a horn riding on the reproducer is a pretty good indication of a well adjusted machine.

Jerry Blais

[RefSeries]

I have found that Edison motors can run amazingly steadily once they settle down. I balance the governor weights using cheap digital letter scales and a file, and run a reassembled motor for a couple of hours as 'running in'. They can be a bit cranky if there is a change in temperature unless there is a bit of slack in the bearings and so on but considerning the age of the parts the results are very good.

Being a bit of a nerd I use a Poppy Records' 1000Hz tone cylinder and check the output on an oscilloscope to see if there is any wow/flutter, and while results are never as good as you would get with machinery made yesterday the distortion is way below the level one might expect.

Interestingly one of the best results I have got have come from a Fireside A. Go for it, Jerry!

Keith

[CDBPDX]

I've found that a well maintained and adjusted machine will usually run very smoothly. Sometimes the cylinder will be a little bit out of round and that can cause warbling.

CDB

[FloridaClay]

It is likely an adjustment problem somewhere in the system. They can be quite sensitive. I have an Amberola 50 that drove me crazy with the warbling. Tried about a dozen different things. Finally, just a tiny adjustment to the play of the mandrel on its shaft and a drop or two of fresh oil on the mandrel bearings did the trick. On another machine it was twiddling with the belt tension. Just a trial and error process.

I do have some sympathy with them though. I've noticed as I get older I get crankier too.

Clay

[martinola]

Nicolas-

While I agree with the previous answers you've gotten (ie: the machines can be pretty well adjusted), I think it is safe to say that most cylinder machines as produced for the open market were more prone to develop speed variation issues by their design. The Edison company seems to have acknowledged this by having modified their Triumph recording machine with a good-sized flywheel. The extra flywheel on consumer machines would have been overkill for recordings of Harry Lauder, Cal Stewart and the like. On the other hand, I have a dubbed recording of Schubert's Serenade that has a real nasty warble recorded-in, so even they had problems at times.

But, as the others have said; stick with it and you'll be able to get your machine back to playing well. It just takes more fiddling.

Regards,
Martin

[fmblizz]

When we start to worried about a few RPM variation on 100+ year old recordings on 100+ year old machines, I think it's time to find another hobby...

FORGET ABOUT IT!!!!!!

If your looking for high fidelity,,, go digital.

LOL

blizz

[Roaring20s]

I've had a few cylinder players and they all played smoothly to my ears.
I just find that the machines are just noisy.
Natural noisiness can be ignored, but a warble needs to be corrected.
Good luck pinpointing the issue.

James.

PS:
I've not noticed any warble on my Standard, not even whilst strolling.

iMod.jpg (20.82 KiB) Viewed 1604 times

I drew this a few years ago and could not resist a chance to use it again.

[ImperialGuardsman]

I've had a few cylinder players and they all played smoothly to my ears.
I just find that the machines are just noisy.
Natural noisiness can be ignored, but a warble needs to be corrected.
Good luck pinpointing the issue.

James.

PS:
I've not noticed any warble on my Standard, not even whilst strolling.

iMod.jpg

I drew this a few years ago and could not resist a chance to use it again.

Wow, that is a neat picture! I'm going to have to steal it.

Thank you everyone for your great answers!

[De Soto Frank]

I have found with my own machines ( three Edison "Homes", two of them "B"s, and one "C"), and from oberving other machines on You-tube, I think thay most of what folks refer to as "warble" has to do with the cylinder being slightly out of round, and/or the mandrel having some lateral run-out.


If you watch an Edison machine with a "tail-weight" reproducer, such as a model C or model H, you will often see the weight bob up & down while the cylinder plays, and the bobbing is in sync with the warble or "scratch" of the noise... I think this can be worse with Blue Amberols due to the shrinkage of the celluloid jacket over the plaster core...

After a few listenings, you can usually tell a cylinder playback from a disc by the frequency of the surface noise... the average cylinder, playing at 160 rpm goes "whoosh-whoosh-whoosh" about twice as fast as a 78 rpm disc record.

Sometimes there is also variation of speed involved... in the case of an out of round playing surface, it might just be variations in pressure on the stylus...