Cabinet Key for HMV 194?

[Frankia]

Are there any forum members owning a large re-entrant HMV and key? Perhaps they could check and confirm which is the correct type.

Just came across this thread. I have a HMV 202 which has the left hand pictured key with it.

[Steve]

Just came across this thread. I have a HMV 202 which has the left hand pictured key with it

Then I'm afraid you do not have the correct original key for it! Only the right hand key was ever originally supplied with a 193 or 202. That key is a unique design specifically intended for the Jacobean cabinet design of these two models. The left hand key is much much more commonly found as it was used for a number of HMV cabinets including the FC5 record cabinet and that is why someone has substituted the left hand key for the original which probably got lost.

[Kiwi]

Thanks very much Steve,
That really clears things up for me!
I have always wondered about the left hand key being used in a 202 machine as the shaft seems to be too long. (although it works fine)
unfortunately just because the key came with the machine doesn't make it original to the machine!
I am very disappointed about that!
Now I finally know!
All the best
Tony

[Steve]

When you secure a 202 very cheaply, you can't complain what key comes with it. Any key is a bonus!

[soundgen]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/His-Masters-V ... 3a8c11345d

[PeterF]

Just a little more on this topic...I've recently found out that the left-hand example in the keys photo attached to this thread was used up to the time the oil-bath motor (and the added second lid brace) came into use on the four largest machines, 193, 194, 202 & 203.

So the left-hand key can be correct for them.

Not sure if 163s ever got the oil bath motor, and whether the right hand key ever was provided with them.

[Steve]

Just a little more on this topic...I've recently found out that the left-hand example in the keys photo attached to this thread was used up to the time the oil-bath motor (and the added second lid brace) came into use on the four largest machines, 193, 194, 202 & 203.

So the left-hand key can be correct for them.

Not sure if 163s ever got the oil bath motor, and whether the right hand key ever was provided with them.

Could you please share with us where you got this information from? The LH key was NOT used on the 193 or 202 ever, as far as this information has ever been recorded. I've never seen either a 193 or 202 with that key either. I doubt your statement therefore that this key can be correct for them.

You then query the 163 with oil-bath motor and right hand key. Well, if your source of information cannot verify something very well known and stated numerous times before on this forum alone, I have to question its validity. Let me say again the 163 was not fitted with an oil-bath motor, nor did it ever have any key other than the left hand one. Only the bigger models, 193/4 and 202/3 ever got the big four-spring motors or oil-bath types. If a 163 exists out there with this motor, it would be a unrecorded rarity indeed and probably a one-off assembled later on after the machines were scrapped by a factory employee for a member of staff. Odd anomalies do turn up from time to time but these are not commercial products

[PeterF]

I got the info on the differences between early and late "big four" models (193/194 & 202/203) on motor type and number of lid props, as well as model identification tags, from a UK collector. Keys were part of this as well.

The information I got from him was about these four largest models only, and here is a summary:

Early:
- single lid support
- LH key (see the picture posted earlier in this thread)
- conventional four spring motor
- model ID on a decal on motorboard

Late:
- double lid supports
- RH key
- oil bath motor
- model ID on round celluloid button located under used needle cup

We in the US are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to this, because we have a far smaller sample size of HMV machines to observe. So I will of course defer to the UK collectors' observations and experience. I'm not going to name any names lest I start one of those British Gramophone Collector flamewars of which the fussier collectors seem to be so fond.

I started this thread to find out what sort of key to obtain for my 194, and learned that it was the LH style. They look a lot like commonly found keys from the Brunswick line of phonographs, so I found one of those to use for display. It does not operate the lock, unfortunately. The early Victor wreath-style key from my VTLA does actuate the 194's lock however.

Steve, I'm not sure why you're talking about the 163 model, because all I said in my note was that I didn't know anything about keys or motors for it. But thanks for the info you've provided otherwise.

[Steve]

Well I believe your "UK collector'" source is wrong! I'm also a UK collector and I'd contradict the information and stand by what I've said previously.

Incidentally I've just checked a copy of "His Master's Gramophone" by Proudfoot & Oakley (if you don't know Proudfoot is widely recognised as an authority on HMV machines and knows considerably more than I do on this subject) and it too states that the LH key was a standard Birmingham design used on the 163 and other late cabinet machines apart from the 193 and 202 which only ever had the right hand key.

I mentioned the 163 solely because you asked if it ever had an oil-bath motor, which might be interpreted as suggesting that you and your UK source did not know much about these re-entrant machines.

[saxymojo]

I have a 193 and a 202 and they both have the same key as the one on the right.

My 193 has two lid supports and a four spring motor, the ID is on a celluloid disc located under the used needle cup

My 202 has two lid supports and the oil bath motor, the ID is also on a celluloid disc located under the used needle cup

Regads Marcel