#52 oil bath motor HMV 202

[gramophoneshane]

Yes, I've been trying to find pictures on the web of HMV oil bottles, and checking the Aussie newspaper archives to see whether there was any indication as to the volume of oil in a bottle. So far I've had no luck.
Then again, it's also possible that the regular oil sold by HMV for other machines was of a different type and quantity. If I have any success I'll definately let you know.

One thing I did find out was that the Re-entrante models first went on sale here in Australia on 14 June, 1928, so they really took quite some time to finally reach our shores.

[dd2u]

Apparently they were shipped dry and supplied with a bottle of oil, just the right amount for the new owner to pour into the motor

They were shipped "dry" so that the oil would not run out of the machine if it was lifted or transported off-vertical. If you lay one of these beasts on its back, and then put it upright again, it will make quite a mess on your carpet!

[emgcr]

I decided to oil the springs rather than grease them, the springs are beside each other so I can't see any reason that one was greased and not the other. I will keep a close eye on them to see if the oil gets into the barrel.

I shall be extremely interested to see how you get on as my experience seems to show that oil in the spring barrels is not a good idea. Moly grease, I am told, incorporates small balls of Molydenum which stay in position thus prohibiting the spring steel coils from actually touching each other and allow everything to SLIDE nicely. I think the problem may be that full immersion might work well but with partial immersion the sections not in the oil dry out quite quickly producing the dreaded "bump" as the spring pressure winds down. Please keep us posted !

In the meantime, here are photos of original supply details of the Garrard Super Motor. We have a photo of the all-important bottle but no quantity, although reference is made to a small bottle ! As stated earlier, 100 Ml seems to work well.

[Steve]

Marcel

Congratulations on another splendid purchase! Was it a 'local' machine or did you have to import it?

I too would be interested to hear your response to Gramophoneshane's question about the differences in reproduction between the 193 and 202.

Regarding the 52 motor, I took my motor out and filled the base of the motor casing to a level just above the lowest gears so all 'bearings' are fully immersed. There appeared to be a mixture of oil and grease on both springs when I got it. I used a car engine grade of oil believing it couldn't possibly harm a gramophone motor. I could be wrong it seems?

After nearly 8 years, the pump still works fine and the oil is not too viscous to prevent it flowing through the narrow tubes. I regularly 'prime' the pump and watch the lovely oil fill the mini reservoir around the spindle (with turntable removed). It's a joy to watch!

The motor is silent both when being wound up and during play. I'm not wishing to tempt fate but so far I am glad to say I have no problems to report with it.

Regards

Steve

[emgcr]

Steve, thank you for your comments. It was not clear from what you said as to whether your motor now has grease or oil inside the spring barrels ?

[saxymojo]

Hi Steve

Yes it was interstate, I had a friend who travels interstate a lot, he picked it up and delivered it to Sydney for $50.00, pretty good I thought.

Sound comparison between the 193 and the 202, well my 193 is one of the best sounding that I have ever heard, everything seems to be right on it. I haven't checked all over the 202, the reproducer could do with a new flange rubber, but as it stands I would say it has a fatter sound. When I have finished checking it over I will spend some time doing a sound comparison and let you and Shane know the result.

With the oil going just above the lowest gear, that would also go above the crank entry point, did you replace the leather seal with an O ring? do you get any oil seepage?

Regards Marcel

[Steve]

Ok, two questions to answer from Graham and Marcel.

Maybe I didn't fill quite as high as I thought because I never touched the leather seal and no, there has never been any oil seepage accordingly. I never needed to touch the springs so they are still graphited as done by the factory with soft grease but they are also 'wet' with oil. I did spot that there were tiny tiny fragments of graphite and presumably dried grease fragments in the original oil that was near enough non-existant when I bought the machine. You could see small spots of black in otherwise cleanish oil. I have heard that this motor design encourages the oil to 'flush' the grease out of the springs!

[emgcr]

Very interesting and thank you again Steve. In the Garrard Super Motor, too much oil will definitely extract the grease from the spring barrels---I have seen this happening. Again, in my experience, I have found that oil (as opposed to soft grease) in between the spring coils, where those coils are not fully immersed in oil, is not adequate as a lubricant for a slowly unwinding pressure situation---intermittent "bumping" will occur as friction varies and sections tend to dry out. I have no experience of what would occur should the springs be fully immersed in oil but would still doubt a successful outcome. It would therefore seem to be the case that the greased springs and the oiled gears/spindles can happily co-exist as long as the oil levels are not too high---ie, the oil level, with the pump at rest and with all oil fully drained back into the sump, should be below the bottom of the spring barrels.

Do others have a different experience ?

[Steve]

It would therefore seem to be the case that the greased springs and the oiled gears/spindles can happily co-exist as long as the oil levels are not too high---ie, the oil level, with the pump at rest and with all oil fully drained back into the sump, should be below the bottom of the spring barrels

Yes, that is certainly my experience. Unfortunately I never took photos of my motor with the top plate removed, to show the internal parts, either before or after. As I took over four hours to re-assemble it and to line up the spout with a tiny hole in the top section (as you lower the top plate there is no easy method to line it up visually) for it to work successfully, I'm sure you'll appreciate my reluctance to take it apart again!

I don't know about the Garrard design but the No. 52, when primed lubricates the top bearings and governor pads as well as the spindle shaft. As I see it, the spring barrel spindles were designed to be lubricated with oil whilst the springs were heavily greased. As such, unless you literally filled the casing up with oil, there shouldn't be any harm done to the lubricated springs with the use of oil to the centre shaft / spindles? In other words, oil will never get into the barrels in sufficient quantity to really 'flush' the grease out. Wouldn't it take something like paraffin to do that anyway, and not simply oil?

[saxymojo]

Hi

I tend to agree with you Steve, it looks to me that the springs are meant to be greased. The oil distribution plate you speak of, has felt washers at the end of the channels. I believe this is to slow the oil down so as to seep onto the centre shaft of the spring barrels, not allowing large amounts of oil to enter.

I will pull my motor down again on the weekend and take some photos of the inside and post them.

Steve was it the 52 you had trouble lining up the spout with the plate? mine just went straight in.

Regards Marcel