The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

For whatever it's worth, I think using the term "off brand" based on the source of a machine's parts is rather meaningless and potentially confusing. For instance, the inexpensive Autophone of the late teens used at least some parts unique to that brand. However, only a handful exist today. Exactly one advertisement appeared in the Talking Machine World for the machines (Feb. 1919), suggesting only a brief period of manufacture. Should the Autophone be considered a major brand simply because of its unique parts? How about a Brooks?

Despite the fact that Pathé often used generic parts, it must be considered a major brand based on two attributes that are far more important than the source of its parts: number sold (as evidenced by number of survivors today), and how long the talking machine brand was manufactured.

I suggest a simple definition: if a talking machine whose brand name is commonly or even occasionally found today in a global market, and the brand was manufactured for at least 8-10 years, I'd consider it a major brand. All others are off brands. (An obvious exception would be U.S. Berliner, so I'll weasel and say that Berliner, Johnson, and Victor are all the same "brand...")

I get the feeling that some believe the term "off brand" somehow carries a negative connotation. That's clearly not accurate, as the Vitaphone, United States Talking Machine, Multiphone, Autophone multi-selector machines, Greenhill, Echophone, and others are highly sought-after talking machines - - and are all off brands. The Victrola XI is, of course, from a major brand. Which would you rather have?

George P.

All that would make sense for the early Pathé machines sold here, Yanya. From what I have read it was well into 1917 before they began making much other than records themselves in the US factory. And I suspect that some things may have been made by others even after that. The lateral adopter on my Model 75 has an opaque diaphragm, although it is not aluminum. Looks like Bakelite. Haven't taken it apart to see what, if anything, might be lurking underneath. (It is pot metal and doing that might be asking for trouble.)

I guess I would also have to agree with George that a company not making all its own parts is not an especially helpful test. To me market penetrations is far more important in identifying the majors. And also agree that being an "off brand" does not equate to poor quality. Sometime quite the contrary. Perhaps a better phrase than "off brand" is needed, inasmuch as "off brand" has taken on a negative implication over the years.

Clay

I don't specifically collect "off brand" machines but I do like machines with style or unique cabinetry. Here's a few... Jerry

I am sure everybody defines "Off-Brands" differently. To me it means "uninteresting" and therefore not worth collecting.

I'm afraid if your familiarity with Pathé is solely based on its US operations, you have missed a colossal swathe of its operations. In France and across the European continent, the company was THE major player and produced literally hundreds of variations of machines, more than ANY other manufacturer of its time. Its ranges were unsurpassed. I doubt anyone could produce a comprehensive book on the company today, there are that many machines produced of different styles and functionality. Which other manufacturer produced more than one type of machine that had two completely different methods of amplifying sound within the same instrument?

Sometimes the location can make an off brand machine interesting. I once saw a damaged upright in a shop. It was plain and even when new it was a cheaply built second rate machine. I looked at it twice because it had been made (or at least assembled) in Sidney NY, where I was born.

Interestingly, I have yet to have found anything made here in Albany or in nearby Schenectady or Troy. The closest has been a small "Mastertonic" table machine from nearby Cohoes NY. It still wasn't interesting enough to buy.

Steve wrote:I'm afraid if your familiarity with Pathé is solely based on its US operations, you have missed a colossal swathe of its operations. In France and across the European continent, the company was THE major player and produced literally hundreds of variations of machines, more than ANY other manufacturer of its time. Its ranges were unsurpassed. I doubt anyone could produce a comprehensive book on the company today, there are that many machines produced of different styles and functionality. Which other manufacturer produced more than one type of machine that had two completely different methods of amplifying sound within the same instrument?

So another factor comes into play--context. What is a major player in one location may be a rarity in another. And most of us, of course, speak out of our own context. Yet another reason why if you ask a dozen collectors what an "off brand" is, you may get that many (or more!) different answers.

Clay

Steve wrote:I'm afraid if your familiarity with Pathé is solely based on its US operations, you have missed a colossal swathe of its operations. In France and across the European continent, the company was THE major player and produced literally hundreds of variations of machines, more than ANY other manufacturer of its time. Its ranges were unsurpassed. I doubt anyone could produce a comprehensive book on the company today, there are that many machines produced of different styles and functionality. Which other manufacturer produced more than one type of machine that had two completely different methods of amplifying sound within the same instrument?

Amen!

George P.

Steve wrote:I'm afraid if your familiarity with Pathé is solely based on its US operations, you have missed a colossal swathe of its operations. In France and across the European continent, the company was THE major player and produced literally hundreds of variations of machines, more than ANY other manufacturer of its time. Its ranges were unsurpassed. I doubt anyone could produce a comprehensive book on the company today, there are that many machines produced of different styles and functionality. Which other manufacturer produced more than one type of machine that had two completely different methods of amplifying sound within the same instrument?

+1 on that. Paillard is another manufacture that made talking machines and parts along with music boxes of every type and for a global market under many names. Even Sonora (USA) used their parts. Not sure I would call then an off-brand??.

I think any outfit that didn't produce records qualifies as a "secondary make" but no rule is without exceptions, for example Aeolian sold tons of records but the machines never made a splash.