The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Look, if vinyl LP's were 5 inches diameter and played at 160 rpm, the same problems would remain.


The tolerances on the old cylinder machines stand up well, considering everything.

At the risk of stating the obvious, it is the flywheel action of a heavy turntable which smooths out any speed irregularities on a disc machine.

One of our West of England members has built an electronic device which automatically compensates for wobble or flutter caused by out of round cylinders. I hope to attend a demonstration of this next month.

Out of round cylinders can do it, but it my case in was a matter of curing significantly irregular running speed.

Clay

Epi is correct - most cylinder machines are prone to wow and flutter (warble) for the simple reason that they lack sufficient flywheel action. Edison became aware of this and changed the design of his later machines to include more rotating mass near the mandrel. The early Edisons up to the introduction of the Amberolas are all prone to flutter. They will play smoothly only when everything is perfectly tuned and balanced. And even then, they still tend to have some noticeable flutter. Beginning with the Amberola I and the Opera, Edison included extra rotating mass and/or a flutter filter spring coupling before the flywheel for the express purpose of reducing flutter. The Opera motor (also used in the Amberolas 1B and III) is probably the best of the Edison designs with the Amberola V also being very good. The later Amberolas had the decoupling spring but they did not have as much rotating mass as these previous designs. A matter of cost-cutting, I presume.

Disc machines are inherently more speed stable due to the large rotating mass of their turntable platters. Some designs also included mechanical flutter filters in the form of slipping or elastic couplings between the platter shaft and the platter. Again, the designers were aware of the flutter problem and included these fixes specifically to address the problem.

Keith,

I especially like your technique of using
the 1000 cycle test tone!

I did a similar thing here, only I recorded
the 1004 Hz "milliwatt" test tone from
a telephone company test line that plays this
tone. (Call 352-567-0310 to hear it)

That phone line was called up and the 1004 Hz
tone recorded on to a brown wax cylinder.

Then, playing that cylinder back on the same
machine gives a very good indication of
the wow, flutter, and overall correctness of
the speed.

As to to the comment "If you want accuracy,
go digital, forget about it"....

Well, let's just say that these old cylinder
machines can and will produce amazingly
accurate and consistent results if everything
is properly adjusted and oiled.

The main thing to get right, is the governor.

Chuck

I did suspect that the turntable on a disc machine did function as a flywheel. Very interesting stuff. Overall, it sounds like proper adjustment can overcome the lack of a flywheel. Would y'all say that geting these machines adjusted is difficult or not too bad?

ImperialGuardsman wrote:Overall, it sounds like proper adjustment can overcome the lack of a flywheel. Would y'all say that geting these machines adjusted is difficult or not too bad?

Most of the time, adjustment is not too bad. Just a few machines though, were a vexation. Know any good shamans?

I once had a Triumph that had inconsistent speed fluctuations. By that I mean it would play fine for days on end, then mysteriously lose a few rpm, speed up, lose speed... I checked everything multiple times, and finally removed all three mainsprings, cleaned them, and regreased them. You can imagine how happy I was to hear the speed fluctuations return.

I had thought all along that the governor was the problem, but everything seemed proper until I actually removed the governor. I noted that the governor springs had been replaced, and whoever had done the job had failed to bow them outward. As I removed each governor spring, I noted that one of them had been installed backward. There's no way to tell this without disassembly, but the round hole at one end of the governor spring was where the oblong hole should have been. I reversed the position of this governor spring, bowed all 3 of them, reassembled the governor, and the machine played beautifully - and this time for good. The fellow who owns it reports that it has played perfectly for years now.

The moral of the story is that original design isn't the only challenge to obtaining good reproduction from cylinder machines. We must also fix the work of a century's worth of handymen!

George P.

epigramophone wrote:At the risk of stating the obvious, it is the flywheel action of a heavy turntable which smooths out any speed irregularities on a disc machine.

One of our West of England members has built an electronic device which automatically compensates for wobble or flutter caused by out of round cylinders. I hope to attend a demonstration of this next month.

I look forward to hearing more about that.

Which end of the Triumph governor should have the oblong hole, friction wheel end or fixed end? I have had it apart for a thorough cleaning and while I think I reassembled it correctly, I would like to check it after reading this. Also, how do you bow them outward?

Jim