The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

A sometimes more accurate way of determining if a Concert or Exhibition reproducer was used is to closely examine the tone arm tube in the spot where the reproducer rests when the u-tube is hinged back in the rest position. It's a very rare machine indeed that does not have a small wear spot in that location from repeated contact with the reproducer. The location of that spot will be different for a Concert than for an Exhibition. A Concert "witness" mark will even sometimes show the imprint of its knurled outer diameter in the taper tube.

JerryVan wrote:A sometimes more accurate way of determining if a Concert or Exhibition reproducer was used is to closely examine the tone arm tube in the spot where the reproducer rests when the u-tube is hinged back in the rest position. It's a very rare machine indeed that does not have a small wear spot in that location from repeated contact with the reproducer. The location of that spot will be different for a Concert than for an Exhibition. A Concert "witness" mark will even sometimes show the imprint of its knurled outer diameter in the taper tube.

Believe it or not Jerry....the central point of both reproducers is the same. Therefore, the touch mark will be in approximately the same location. There is also the issue of a "period upgrade".

[

gramophone78 wrote:Jake (I had Sonny on my mind.. ), since it is your machine......selling it any way you see proper is fine.

There is one good way to test if a machine came with a concert or not. If you place the concert on and place the "U" tube down in "play" position......if the "U" tube is now level with the rest of the arm......it was originally equipped with a concert.
Collectors over the years notice how many machines (Victor horn models) with a Exhibition will see the "U" tube while in play with a upward tilt. That is because the Exhibition is a larger diameter to a concert.
The same rule if a machine is with a level arm with an Exhibition....if level, it came with a Exhibition.

One last point.....the Victor tone arm is designed so that when the "U" tube is level.....the inner opening is wide open for sound transfer. Anything up or down from level retards the inner opening.

Wow...I don't know why this simple trick hadn't ever crossed my mind before! Thank you very much for the information and help identifying which reproducer IS correct to the machine.

I decided not to end the eBay listing as I try to avoid that at all costs. So, I have revised the listing to include the Concert along with the Exhibition currently on the machine. I would like to add that I wouldn't ever cannibalize a machine or knowingly alter it's original configuration for the sake of profit. I made a mistake in my assumption and appreciate everyone's insight to help me correct it.

SonnyPhono wrote:[

gramophone78 wrote:Jake (I had Sonny on my mind.. ), since it is your machine......selling it any way you see proper is fine.

There is one good way to test if a machine came with a concert or not. If you place the concert on and place the "U" tube down in "play" position......if the "U" tube is now level with the rest of the arm......it was originally equipped with a concert.
Collectors over the years notice how many machines (Victor horn models) with a Exhibition will see the "U" tube while in play with a upward tilt. That is because the Exhibition is a larger diameter to a concert.
The same rule if a machine is with a level arm with an Exhibition....if level, it came with a Exhibition.

One last point.....the Victor tone arm is designed so that when the "U" tube is level.....the inner opening is wide open for sound transfer. Anything up or down from level retards the inner opening.

Wow...I don't know why this simple trick hadn't ever crossed my mind before! Thank you very much for the information and help identifying which reproducer IS correct to the machine.

I decided not to end the eBay listing as I try to avoid that at all costs. So, I have revised the listing to include the Concert along with the Exhibition currently on the machine. I would like to add that I wouldn't ever cannibalize a machine or knowingly alter it's original configuration for the sake of profit. I made a mistake in my assumption and appreciate everyone's insight to help me correct it.

I'm not sure the "simple trick" is so simple. I've seen Victor machines, ( I have at least one) with two sets of holes drilled in the back, one above the other. So... theoretically a Vic I could have been offered with one reproducer and the back bracket adjusted up or down to accommodate. So if something isn't right, it could just be because the machine was disassembled and reassembled improperly...

And what about those machines that were offered new with multiple options? I've got a repro 1908 Victor catalogue that offers a Victor I with either concert or exhibition reproducer, your choice for the same price. In another catalogue, the victor I is offered with a petaled horn, or brass bell horns, concert or exhibition soundbox.

Bruce, I will try and clarify what I wrote for you and others. However, I have to say in all the many years I have collected Victor......I have "never" seen a number series machine with two sets of back bracket holes. If another member has one....please post it for all to see. We don't know if a period store "adjusted" a customers machine "when" they upgraded to an exhibition or at a much later date. Of course I am surmising here.

Now to clarify. The "early" Victor number machine's came at the "base" price with a concert and black & brass horn. So "unless pre-ordered", The bracket holes would have been drilled to accommodate the concert reproducer.
The customer (at a cost) could up-grade the horn and reproducer. I have (as others) the Victor horn price list. For example....the wood horns were $10 & $15 "more". A practice followed by company's to this day.
This all said.....don't be confused with machine's that were made after the concert was dropped from production. Those machine's will be drilled for exhibition. Then, the improved concert was starting to be available. However the diameter of "these" two are not too far off.

BTW, yes!!, it does say a customer had a choice....it does not say it was a "free" choice. Are you assuming any horn upgrade was also "free"??. Victor was a money making machine. Not a charitable organization... .

I hope this make it clearer.

Anyone care to add to this or correct me "if" I'm wrong.

I just feel bad that "we" are taking over Jake's "for sale" thread in "Yankee Trader".

Agreed, interesting topic but so as to avoid taking over this thread, let's start over. I'll repost some of the basics in the "machines" thread where it all probably belongs anyway.

Just to be clear, I'm not purporting to know the answers, just have a lot of questions!

gramophone78 wrote:

JerryVan wrote:A sometimes more accurate way of determining if a Concert or Exhibition reproducer was used is to closely examine the tone arm tube in the spot where the reproducer rests when the u-tube is hinged back in the rest position. It's a very rare machine indeed that does not have a small wear spot in that location from repeated contact with the reproducer. The location of that spot will be different for a Concert than for an Exhibition. A Concert "witness" mark will even sometimes show the imprint of its knurled outer diameter in the taper tube.

Believe it or not Jerry....the central point of both reproducers is the same. Therefore, the touch mark will be in approximately the same location. There is also the issue of a "period upgrade".

Yes, well, I came to realize that too as I thought about it more. Thanks for pointing it out, I didn't mean to confuse the issue. You can still look for the knurl marks however, that's how I determined that one of my Victors had a Concert on it originally.

Interesting eBay resale. Shill bidding? Amazing how the addition of an exhibition reproducer can boost the value of a machine by 800 to 900 dollars in less than a week.

brianu wrote:Interesting eBay resale. Shill bidding?

Not at all. Actually, just well lit pictures, an honest description of the machine, a revision adding the Concert rather than removing the listing, a high feedback/star rating most of which stems from phonograph related sales and a proven track record of good communication and safe shipping practices.

It's amazing the people who try to sell decent phonographs without taking good pictures, adding a thorough description or not cleaning a machine up at all. Also, I'm confused why as to why someone would try to sell a machine online without using all 12 pictures that eBay allows free of charge. What amazes me more though, is when those people who don't realize the prices they were hoping for question those who are achieving high prices by throwing out suggestions like shill bidding. It would be silly to completely jeopardize an eBay account that so much time and effort has been put into in order to establish respect and a following merely for the sake of a few hundred dollars.

Well stated Sonny. Ebay can be a great tool if used properly. More people see it than our forum and with a good feedback rating, a true description, and lotsof great photos people can feel safe about bidding. I have always been nervous about buying machines from ebay.

Brianu I wonder why you have taken such a personal interest in Sonny's listing. Is this really any different than finding a machine in your neighbors attic, getting it for a great price, then cleaning it up to sell for actual value? Isn't that how many collectors perpetuate their own collections? Just saying.