Victor horn machines, reproducers & options

[SonnyPhono]

One more question if I may. Nobody has addressed the serial number issue I mentioned. The Concert reproducer on my Vic I is considerably lower than that of the machine itself. If the Concert was used on the letter models prior to the Vic I's introduction, then to be original, wouldn't my Vic I need to have a Concert reproducer with a higher serial number than the machine? Having a lower serial # on the Concert doesn't make logical sense to me. My Concert has a serial # in the 20,000's and I imagine there were more than that issued prior to 1907 or so, when my Vic I was made. And if there were more than 20,000 Concerts made before my machine was produced, then how did it end up on my machine which has a higher serial number? Can anyone possibly shine some light on this for me?

[Edisone]

Does anyone else here have something like mine:

An apparent Victor I, but with no identification of ANY kind, anywhere - no tag, no holes where a tag would have been, no serial on the motor, no label & no indication of a label. The Exhibition does say that it was made by Victor for the Gramophone & Typewriter Co - otherwise, you'd never know. It has a 10 inch turntable & no extra holes to show that the brake was ever moved, so must have always been 10in ..... has a flat, slotted crank .... small tone-arm, and clamp-down small black flower horn - but with points, not the curves of an American Victor horn.

It looks much like this HMV/Zonophone, but with a thinner, iron turntable.

[gramophone78]

Bruce Wrote:"I'd conclude that whether the reproducer U joint rides horizontally on the record or at a slight angle might be a indication as to which reproducer was purchased new with your machine but wouldn't prove it one way or the other in most cases".

You are correct. Again, to keep this simple....any machine you may own of the number series that has the "U" tube level while in play (concert/ex.).....is the way it was adjusted when it left the factory. Now, like anything in life....there will be anomalies.
Also, when the concert was no longer used....those machine's will be adjusted for the ex.
That's it. Nothing too complicated.
Thanks for the pic showing two sets of holes......so, I assume there are two sets of tapped holes in the metal plate??.
I wish we could "prove" these "second" set of holes were indeed "factory" made..... . However, after 100+ years....that could be very difficult.

A guess on my part as stated earlier by me....these cases may have already been made when the concert was dropped..??. Cases were made in the hundreds at a time. Certain models stock may have lingered??. Victor was certainly known for using "left over" parts to put machines together. Again, sales & numbers.

On another note....."horns". If you read "later" literature of Victor's, you will see that the B&B horn was phased out. The flower horn became the "base" horn.

In closing.....there is no right or wrong, correct or incorrect. Because upgrades/improvements could be and were made by original owners while they were buying their new machine. I have to assume that only the factory was concerned that "their" tone arm design was set up properly aligned. The salesman or customer may not have. It's not like it retards the sound by "that" much..... .

[gramophone78]

Does anyone else here have something like mine:

An apparent Victor I, but with no identification of ANY kind, anywhere - no tag, no holes where a tag would have been, no serial on the motor, no label & no indication of a label. The Exhibition does say that it was made by Victor for the Gramophone & Typewriter Co - otherwise, you'd never know. It has a 10 inch turntable & no extra holes to show that the brake was ever moved, so must have always been 10in ..... has a flat, slotted crank .... small tone-arm, and clamp-down small black flower horn - but with points, not the curves of an American Victor horn.

It looks much like this HMV/Zonophone, but with a thinner, iron turntable.

Your machine is a UK model. Not a Victor US model. Berliner in Canada also used a case exactly like a early Vic.1 case and called it a "K" when front mount and then a "KT" when with a back bracket set up. Your flower horn with "pointed" ends is the exact same way Berliner (in Canada) made his first flower horns. He even offered them in red. Of course later he changed to the US style flower horn design and in black only... .

[gramophone78]

One more question if I may. Nobody has addressed the serial number issue I mentioned. The Concert reproducer on my Vic I is considerably lower than that of the machine itself. If the Concert was used on the letter models prior to the Vic I's introduction, then to be original, wouldn't my Vic I need to have a Concert reproducer with a higher serial number than the machine? Having a lower serial # on the Concert doesn't make logical sense to me. My Concert has a serial # in the 20,000's and I imagine there were more than that issued prior to 1907 or so, when my Vic I was made. And if there were more than 20,000 Concerts made before my machine was produced, then how did it end up on my machine which has a higher serial number? Can anyone possibly shine some light on this for me?

I wish I could give some insight to the "serial number" debate. I'm still confused with just the Vic.4 production total in LFD and the Canadian vs US machine's. Then there all the export models to the South... . Did we determine Berliner was making his own number series machine in Montreal or was he having Victor ship him fully assembled ones???.

If that was the case......why did Berliner have such a large production factory built??.

Someone care to chime in???.

[penman]

I've been following the thread about arm height with interest, but until now had nothing to offer. I was thinking about the 2 hole issue and thinking 2 sets of holes in the case doesn't make any sense unless the metal plate either has 2 sets of holes, or their should also be 2 holes in the case for the metal plate. I just opened up my ca. 1903 MS which was originally only a rear mount machine. Patent sticker has a price of $50. What do you think I found! Two sets of screw holes in the metal plate, pretty obviously original, only one set of holes in the case. (I bought this machine MANY years ago). I'll post some photos later.

[rizbone]

In the case of the machine pictured earlier the center hole is equidistant between the two sets of bracket support holes. All you would need to do is flip the plate to use it with the other set, so I expect the plate has only one hole for this machine.

[FloridaClay]

For whatever it may be worth, my VIC III has only one set of back bracket mounting holes.

Query: How common are the cases with 2 sets? Might this not have been something done by a machine owner rather than a dealer?

Clay

[whoopinola]

My early Vic-I ..S/N 16748...Bottom licence print date Mar 1-1902...$22.00...came to me with a round hole Exibition S/N 52354...It has only two holes for the back bracket....the screw plate has four holes...The angle of U tube indicates it was set up for the concert , but the age and weathering of the machine seems to say that the Exibition has been there since day one....This is an auction house , barn find , and has not been in the hands of another collector who might have swapped out the reproducer

[soundgen]

in the UK it can be even stranger , I assume all early machines were made in the USA and shipped here ,some have two sets and three sets of holes one being offset to the left side looking at the back , presumably to take a travelling arm ! somewhere I have a picture and will try and find it