The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

As I study these needles more I am starting to think they may actually be better for my records than the rounded 'quality' ones. The illastration below shows how these two needles look after a single play (they are too small to get a real picture): Notice that the needle on the left which terminates in a rounded tip is fatter where it scrapes the groove, and thus formes two overhainging channels over the groove wall. These lips ride on top of the groove edge and wear it away from the top down untill the needle tip reaches the groove base.

-on the other hand, the sharp needle does not develope these lips since it is thin enough to ride in the groove. This will preserve the upper groove wall yet cause more pressure in the channel.

The following illistration depects how I imagine long term record wear to look between the two needle types, does this look right?: The question remains, how will this tracking affect the lateral movement in the groove? This may just be wishful thinking on my part since I already have these needles, so correct me if I am missing something.

Mike bought the needles from me , I have sold many hundreds of thousands of needles online and personally all of our needles are made in the UK by UK needle producers who have made them for over 100 years , yes the quality does vary from time to time but I would venture to say that the difference in the needles pictures won't result in any additional wear to the records , my reply to Mike was as follows

hello Michael

Thanks for your email

I'm sorry you are unhappy with the needles and of course you can return them for a full refund

However I don't think the "new" batch represent any threat to records , the sharp point you mention will wear away in the first groove , if you play a record with each needle and look at the point after playing you will see the wear will be almost identical , I agree under magnification in your pictures they appear to look very different , but I don't think this difference is significant

As I am sure you are aware 78s are filled with abrasive ( usually slate powder ) to wear the needle away so that the record doesn't wear quickly , this is why steel needles are and always have been one play , after playing the needle is worn significantly at the point and side , this steel that always wears off the needle stays in the record groove until the record is cleaned either with a duster or washed , and if not cleaned regularly will be pushed around the groove with every play

We haven't received any complaints elsewhere regarding this new batch of needles and have supplied over 1,000 packs worldwide

Unfortunately we don't have any earlier batches of needles left so cannot offer a replacement

Regards

Mike



I have somewhere a long article from the Gramophone magazine in the 1930 detailing such issues and all the needles made then including the supposedly best HMV contain needles with hooked ends the comments in the article are very informative

You should look at the needle point after it has played a record , the needle wears away not the record ! If you are at all worried about needle wear on 78s don't play them on a windup use a light weight sure pick up !

The proper operation of a steel needle is as follows: The new needle should be shaped such that it does not sit on the bottom of the groove but is supported by the groove walls. As it wears, flats develop on the needle at the contact points with the groove walls. Eventually, the needle gets worn to the extent that it becomes shaped to fill the entire cross section of the groove and extends down to the bottom of the groove. It should be replaced before it is worn even more.

The needle that you picture on the left is a typical example of what happens when a needle is excessively worn. It forms the shoulders that you see which then causes the needle to partially ride on the land which lifts the needle out of proper close contact with the groove walls. This results in distortion and uneven groove wall wear. The needle should be replaced before it gets to this condition. Your super-sharp needles may be harder than typical if they have played one side of a record without exhibiting the noticeable flats on the tip which are normal. Too much wear results in the shoulders. If the needle is too sharp, it will ride on the bottom of the groove rather than contacting the groove walls properly which will result in mistracking and distortion. But this condition will correct itself after a short amount of needle wear at the bottom of the tip. My suggestion would be to try the super sharp needles to see how they sound. They might sound distorted for the first few revolutions of the record but then sound better. If so, this is due to it taking a few revolutions to wear the sharp point into the shape of the groove, after which the needle sounds correct. This may or may not wear the first revolutions of your records excessively - probably not an issue as this initial wear will be at the bottom of the groove rather than on the groove walls. If this bothers you, I'd suggest "forming" the super sharp needle by playing maybe 30 seconds or so of a junk record with a new needle to dull the tip before using the needle on your better records.

I've tried to buy from Soundgen, but he doesn't answer emails and I can't increase my order over one packet of 100 needles, unless I did something wrong. So I bought from Bry-phonic.

The pictures above depict a needle after a single play. The sholder becomes present, just not obvious- the picture slightly over exaggerated this feature.

I have come to the conclusion that these needles are fine, the sharp point fits well into the groove and conformes to the groove quickly. The other needle was too fat despite having a rounded point.

marcapra wrote:I've tried to buy from Soundgen, but he doesn't answer emails and I can't increase my order over one packet of 100 needles, unless I did something wrong. So I bought from Bry-phonic.

I never had a problem with soundgen, are you sure your emails are getting through to him?

Those needles will be fine and anyway Soundgen offered to take them back if you had concerns. I've been very happy with the needles purchased from Soundgen.

If you are really concerned about record wear though modern equipment is the only way to go.

Before the introduction of the run-in groove, it was suggested that the needle be allowed to wear in on the outer rim of the record for a few revolutions before starting to play. Older records which have developed a rough start were formerly owned by people who ignored this suggestion.

For later records with a run-in groove, the needle can be worn in by placing it at the end of the record and allowing it to revolve in the run-out groove.