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Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:23 pm
by phonogfp
Dave,
As long as you have the Edison Standard, it would be cheaper and as good/better than an AT to simply buy an Edison B Reproducer. Saves space too!
George P.
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:38 pm
by obmcclintock
Will do George, thank you very much !!!
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:54 pm
by phonogfp
You're very welcome!
George P.
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:31 pm
by obmcclintock
May I ask a dumb question please? I do so only because I have never had a B reproducer before. Will a B play my Edison Gold moulded cylinder records as well as the C or do you get more volume from the C just because of the weight ?? Thank you, Dave
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:14 pm
by phonogfp
obmcclintock wrote:May I ask a dumb question please? I do so only because I have never had a B reproducer before. Will a B play my Edison Gold moulded cylinder records as well as the C or do you get more volume from the C just because of the weight ?? Thank you, Dave
Not a dumb question at all. In a perfect world, and with all the stars in alignment (and both reproducers perfectly rebuilt!), a Model C should give a bit more volume because of the weight and stylus shape. But Edison used Model B reproducers in coin-ops from 1906 -1908 (?) and they give fine results.
I imagine that the Model C might be able to track high frequencies a bit better because of the stylus shape, but that's more than my ear can discern without a back-to-back comparison. Playing 110 year-old records with equipment of similar age... If your Model B is properly rebuilt I think you'll be pleased with it for any records. I have one in an Eclipse coin-op and it plays loud and clear.
George P.
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:28 am
by obmcclintock
Thank you George !!! That information is helpful !! I am curious about your coin-op. I can only dream of having one. I have waited forty years for a 5 inch mandrel machine and finally got one. Maybe the next forty I will obtain a coin-op LOL LOL
Would you mind posting a pic or two of it with an operating description? A good friend of mine many years ago in Portland Ore. by the name of Ira Dueltgen had a cylinder coin op that stood on the floor and had a curved glass front. I never did know much about it and when we got together it was rare and then we focused on other machines and repairs.
Thank you for your time, Dave
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:40 am
by ambrola
phonogfp wrote:Dave,
The additional weight of the Model C Reproducer and the shape of the stylus BOTH contribute to wear when playing brown wax cylinders. The main culprit is the shape of the stylus. The "doorknob" rides perpendicularly to the groove, which allows the narrow ellipse to track finer undulations, but also increases the relative weight per-square-inch exerted upon the recording. With a hard moulded record, this isn't much of a worry, but with the softer brown wax, it can be - and the additional weight only exacerbates the problem.
Any of the Columbia machines using a floating reproducer will be relatively gentle on brown wax records. The AT is a good choice as long as the pot metal top casting and/or carriage are serviceable. (There's one on eBay right now that you should avoid!) The B and the Q will also do the job if you don't mind a little motor noise and winding a key for every record. The AA has a motor similar to the B but it's inside the cabinet. The AO is an elegant machine with a 3-spring motor, but you're in the $1000 neighborhood now.
Years ago I used to play brown wax on a BF with no signs of wear. The Lyric reproducers use ball-shaped styli, which is good, but they're spring-loaded for more stylus pressure, which isn't ideal for brown wax. Still, they give good volume and as I said, I never noticed signs of wear. The only reason I stopped playing brown wax on that BF was because I obtained other machines which employed floating reproducers. That said, the B-series Graphophones (as well as the AZ) are excellent machines with no pot metal problems (except for some early AZ top castings), excellent performance, quiet motors, and they're reasonably-priced in today's market.
Ultimately, a good AT would probably be your best choice all around. Good luck!
George P.
Thanks for the explanation. I always thought and was told the C was OK. I will take the advice and use the Automatic. But I have played them for years with the C, and can't here any difference. Must of got lucky.
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:49 pm
by edisonphonoworks
The strange thing is the aluminum content in the brown wax as compared to moulded, in some ways they equal out chemically. The strange thing is that the brown wax have about ½% aluminum in the compound and gold moulded records have ¼% aluminum content. Brown wax however has just ceresine, and sodium carbonate, and lye. Gold Moulded records, the non label pre 1904 have the same ingredients as brown wax, just caranauba wax and lampblack added. The title end Gold moulded added the previous ingredients plus pine tar, zinc and copper stearate. I just find this interesting. The B I think is much safer for brown wax and Columbia Records. The round stylus found on the Automatic and B is gentler on the records. I have even played the non metallic soap 1888 formula (replicas) with the automatic and still is playable after demonstrations outside in the summer playing many times, I was very surprised that the 1888 kind were still playable after 25 or 30 plays. The original literature says that the brown wax get a harshness at 100 plays according to the manual of the phonograph but do not get much more worn after this point with much difference. I recently put my own brown wax to the test, I made some demonstration records for the local fair, of the top 10 pop, country hits of August 2013, and played them in 100 degree heat with a C reproducer for 4 days, so a total of around 20 hours each and they are still playable. Cylinders should play for a lifetime, if the room temperature is between 68-75 degrees, and the humidity is low, and they are kept clean (I used a camel hair brush) available at high end art stores.) and put back in there container. I have Gold Moulded records I have played several thousand times with no appreciable difference in quality.
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:04 pm
by obmcclintock
George, Shawn, and all others. When I was quite young my Grandparents sang many old songs to us kids. They were born in the 1880s and back then many families used to sing together and some of those tunes were old old old way back when they sang them to us. I have not heard some of these tunes for probably the last 50 years. In 20 or 30 years when us old timers are gone who is going to know any of these old tunes? I am wondering how it would be possible to expose the youth of today to these old treasures?? Many of us got our start by listening to these songs on our first wind up phonographs. I am wondering if the day will come when the only place you see an Edison or hear an old cylinder is in a museum???? My wife and I take our cylinder machine and play for various nursing homes. The last time however we did this we were amazed at the number of seniors that did not recognize many of the old popular tunes that most of us know like Carry me back to old virginny, old black joe, preacher and the bear, etc. One elderly lady asked me after the concert if I had any Elvis Presley???? What a trip !!!! I wouldn't mind possibly going to a school, college, university, and doing a concert for the students but I am wondering if any of them would show up or would even know what it was all about???
Just my thoughts but what do you guys think about such crazy rantings ???? Thanks, Dave
Re: Correct stylus for cylinders ???
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:14 pm
by edisonphonoworks
There are some of us on here who are under 40. I thank my old time school for introducing me to old songs, and my Grandma who used to take me to things like the Bureau Valley Antique club, where old steam engines, and make and break engines are shown. I went to a re-creation of an old time medicine show. The school I went to for 5th-8th grade was 100 years old in 1987, and it still is a functioning school to this day. I asked the janitor what was in the attic, and on the landing to the bell tower, there was a VV-XXV, the only outside horn Victrola, made for educational purposes. We brought it down, and I took the motor home and cleaned it, and fixed the broken spring, and put new governor weights on it,so the motor worked once again. I had an extra no. 2 reproducer and so it would play records. None of us were able to afford the wood,horn so I used an old radio horn, so we could listen to it. I have worked with them ever since. I actually first had interest when I was about 6 or 7 when I saw a photo of an Amberola V with a variety of the Blue Amberols and some nice purple Amberols in the photo. When I was 16 I started to write a column, The Antique Phonograph Corner, which ran from June of 1990-1997, when the paper ceased publication. I wrote almost every month but there was times I missed. There was themes I made new articles on each year, but were the same subject. June was usually about the Union Mechanical Music Show and February of course was about Thomas Alva Edison, and December was about the invention of the Phonograph.