Converting an Amberola V to play 2m cylinders

[pughphonos]

Jerry Van, I'll either try to take some photos or at least find some extant ones that provide detail.

Jerry B. and George P., I hear you. I am struggling with this issue. I understand the entire issue of historical authenticity; not messing up original configurations; only using adapters that were current at the time, etc. I know that even leaving a paper trail (notes stored in the cabinet) that indicates modifications made might not be sufficient as those can be lost.

Another option I am weighing is to just sell the Triumph AND ALL my 2m cylinders, wax and plastic--and investing much of the resultant $ in the discs of the 1902-1908 era. If "flutter" bothers me that much--and it does--then I just might have to give up on the 2m cylinders, even though I know that many are excellent records with incredible fidelity--IF their playback wasn't so horribly BUTCHERED by the imperfect belt-driven means of the era.

I think we all respect each other enough to know that we each have different standards of fidelity. Those who are purist collectors believe in preserving original phonographs in original configuration as much as possible; they do not "modify," unless it's to replace a broken part or to make an upgrade that was possible at the time (I've done that with my Triumph). But for those of us who want our fidelity in the area of reproduction, the belt-driven cylinder phonographs are a perpetual disappointment. Wonderful in their time; but a poor means by which to hear the recorded music of Teddy Roosevelt's era. Disc machines of that era do a pretty darned good job of reproducing the tempos and tonalities of the discs of the era. Whereas cylinders--EVEN WHEN IN THEMSELVES excellently recorded and often superior to discs--are horribly ill-served by their contemporary belt-driven machines.

I hope you all know I don't come in here as the intentional bull in a China shop. I just am an honest person wrestling with real issues as I try to access the past through the medium of antique phonographs. If I were rich and could afford one of those present-day cylinder players--but they cost in the thousands.

Thanks for letting me "talk"--hence the Joan Rivers icon.

Ralph

P.S. George P's suggestion that I use parts to just concoct something totally different, that can't be mistaken for an original machine, seems another way to go. I thank him for that suggestion. I admit: If I truly am more interested in the "fidelity of reproduction," as opposed to the "fidelity of machinery," then I should be willing to build my own Frankenphonograph (or hire someone to do it). If I had only one, I think I could live with it.

I'll continue to wrestle with all this.

[VintageTechnologies]

Ralph, not all belt-driven machines have bad flutter as you are experiencing. Belt slippage can be stopped and I see more flutter problems with finicky governors than anything. I also have a Triumph that has always been hard to keep adjusted. The Homes, Standards and Firesides have been very steady and sedate in my experience. Any machine can potentially flutter, even an Edison Opera.

I have wondered about pouring lead inside a mandrel to create an internal flywheel, but I have not figured out how I would balance it perfectly. That idea would also probably solicit screams from the purists, but there are plenty of junk parts to play with.

If you are feeling really experimental, take a junker and mount the upper works on a box with an electric motor inside.

[52089]

P.S. George P's suggestion that I use parts to just concoct something totally different, that can't be mistaken for an original machine, seems another way to go. I thank him for that suggestion. I admit: If I truly am more interested in the "fidelity of reproduction," as opposed to the "fidelity of machinery," then I should be willing to build my own Frankenphonograph (or hire someone to do it). If I had only one, I think I could live with it.

I'll continue to wrestle with all this.

I don't know if you've seen this before, but I personally think the sound is extraordinary. It's by far the best cylinder Frankenphone I've ever seen:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhLjcfswHb0[/youtube]

Granted this is a 4 minute gear drive machine, but perhaps it will serve as an inspiration for what's possible.

[pughphonos]

VT and 52089, thanks for your thoughts! I did see that Ediphonic video some time back, but will check it out again.

I've been wondering if the Triumph just has too powerful of a motor for its governor and I should downgrade and see what one of those models sounds like (but up to a couple years ago I had a Standard model D and that wasn't even either). I just don't have much patience left to spend on belt-driven machines anymore. Just a few minutes ago I was trying to adjust the Triumph's governor; then played a Blue Amberol on it; indulged the hope that something had improved. But then I played the same cylinder on my Amberola V--and of course the Amberola V showed me once again what true steadiness in reproduction can sound like.

Interesting idea about trying to create one's own flywheel effect.

I have knocked around the idea of an electric motor.

Decision: I'll send out the Triumph one last time early next year to have its governor replaced and/or adjusted--and if it still doesn't suit my ear, on to Yankee Trader it goes!

[Valecnik]

I don't think the issues you have with your Triumph are insurmountabe and my suggestion would be to further optimize that, (although sounds like you've been working at it).

I'm not optimistic that you'd be able to refit the Amb V in a way that you'd be happy with. I'm pretty sure there'd be unanticipated issues with gear noise or something not working right.

If optimal sound reproduction is the goal, I'd pursue one of the new, electical playback options, expensive as they may be.

[Edisone]

I have an idea that the feedscrew gearing of Standards & Firesides has a bit of flywheel effect - not the weight of the gears, but the drag. While my Amberola V is very steady and quiet (after many adjustments, cleaning, regreasing, and replacing the "whisker" drive wire) , it's only marginally better than my Standards, Fireside, and even the Fireside-motored Amberola X (which is so quiet that I hafta stick my head almost under the lid to ear any motor noise at all).

I've tried coating the pulleys with thinned rubber cement to increase their grabbing power, but settled on orange-ish RTV gasket gook as it is more permanent. It's also weird looking, but can be removed without trouble.

[Valecnik]

I agree with Edisone that a perfectly tuned Amb V might sound only marginally better than a perfectly tuned belt drive machine if at all. I don't have an Amb V right now but have a 1A, 1B & Triumph, all running optimally. For 2 minute records I usually use the Triumph because it's comparatively much quieter. For 4 minute records, I think the 1B & Triumph are very close to equal, belt drive or not. The horn design of the 1B gives it a bit of an edge.

[De Soto Frank]

P.S. George P's suggestion that I use parts to just concoct something totally different, that can't be mistaken for an original machine, seems another way to go. I thank him for that suggestion. I admit: If I truly am more interested in the "fidelity of reproduction," as opposed to the "fidelity of machinery," then I should be willing to build my own Frankenphonograph (or hire someone to do it). If I had only one, I think I could live with it.

I'll continue to wrestle with all this.

I don't know if you've seen this before, but I personally think the sound is extraordinary. It's by far the best cylinder Frankenphone I've ever seen:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhLjcfswHb0[/youtube]

Granted this is a 4 minute gear drive machine, but perhaps it will serve as an inspiration for what's possible.

Does anyone have any more info on this "Ediphonic" machine ? It is really impressive...

I am also curious about the first record played in the video - the video says it's a "new" cylinder, but it seems like a dub of a vintage electric recroding ? Any info on the source of the music ?

[Valecnik]

P.S. George P's suggestion that I use parts to just concoct something totally different, that can't be mistaken for an original machine, seems another way to go. I thank him for that suggestion. I admit: If I truly am more interested in the "fidelity of reproduction," as opposed to the "fidelity of machinery," then I should be willing to build my own Frankenphonograph (or hire someone to do it). If I had only one, I think I could live with it.

I'll continue to wrestle with all this.

I don't know if you've seen this before, but I personally think the sound is extraordinary. It's by far the best cylinder Frankenphone I've ever seen:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhLjcfswHb0[/youtube]

Granted this is a 4 minute gear drive machine, but perhaps it will serve as an inspiration for what's possible.

Does anyone have any more info on this "Ediphonic" machine ? It is really impressive...

I am also curious about the first record played in the video - the video says it's a "new" cylinder, but it seems like a dub of a vintage electric recroding ? Any info on the source of the music ?

Recorded in May of 1929, given the Blue Amberol no. 5728 but never released on cylinder. It is one of the very last recordings made at the Edison studios just before the Edison Phonograph Company went out of business. Recently transferred to cylinder from an Edison test pressing by the Berlin Phonograph Works, http://www.berlinphonographworks.com. This is take N920-B which was is not even mentioned in current catalog references.

The Ediphonic is very well designed from an Amberola 50/75 mechanism and is accoustically excellent. Here's the same piece on an Amberola III for comparison. Comparing two separately recorded videos on youTube is very difficult. I would guess in person, the Ediphonic would sound better.

[youtubehd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhu9Xs8uac[/youtubehd]

[victorIIvictor]

Valecnik wrote, "If optimal sound reproduction is the goal, I'd pursue one of the new, electical playback options, expensive as they may be."

Aside from the Archaeophone of France (which I believe sells for five figures USD), and setting up the top works of a vintage cylinder machine with an electric motor, what other new electrical playback options are there?

Thanks, Mark