Recent Find: G & T gramophone made for Spain ?

[gramophone78]

I am so close to the Canadian border, I think these and other European machines come from Canada.
Harvey Kravitz

Harvey, I know you claim you heard this from some antique dealer. However, this statement is so far from being accurate it's comical. In fact, the odds of a European machine being found in the US is greater than Canada . More people have immigrated to the US than Canada.

That's your opinion, and I really don't care. It makes sense to me. I'm sure people immigrated from Canada to the U.S. and bring their machines with them. Regardless, lets stay on topic about the machine,eh?
Harvey Kravitz

Yes this is my opinion. However, you bought this up. Saying a machine made for the Spanish market must have come from Canada "is" humorous. Maybe it came to the US from a Mexican ( the other broader)..???. The fact is Harvey, Berliner (Victor) and the other big players had the market up here tight. Just like in the US. I also was not referring to Canadians immigrating to the US with their machines, but immigrants from European counties coming to the US.
I hope that clarifies things for you..... .

[Phonofreak]

I never said that a Spanish machine came from Canada. I said that some HMV/G&T, and European machines may have come from Canada. As I said before, I live very close to the Canadian border. The 2 HMV machines that I bought in Seattle were at an antique store and a craigslist posting. Both machines were an HMV model V. They are similar to a Victor III. When I get a chance, I will have a buddy of mine post pictures in the Forum. I bought the craiglist one from the great grandson of the original owner. His family came to Seattle in the early 1920s from Canada. As far the other one, the owner of the antique store bought the machine at an estate sale from the owner's family, who came from Canada. Why would he make up a story like that? That's why I made the remark about some machines coming from Canada. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I will stand by my statement, and leave it at that, eh.
Harvey Kravitz

[gramophone78]

I never said that a Spanish machine came from Canada. I said that some HMV/G&T, and European machines may have come from Canada. As I said before, I live very close to the Canadian border. The 2 HMV machines that I bought in Seattle were at an antique store and a craigslist posting. Both machines were an HMV model V. They are similar to a Victor III. When I get a chance, I will have a buddy of mine post pictures in the Forum. I bought the craiglist one from the great grandson of the original owner. His family came to Seattle in the early 1920s from Canada. As far the other one, the owner of the antique store bought the machine at an estate sale from the owner's family, who came from Canada. Why would he make up a story like that? That's why I made the remark about some machines coming from Canada. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I will stand by my statement, and leave it at that, eh.
Harvey Kravitz

Harvey, no one is saying they don't believe you. As a long time Canadian collector, I'm trying to explain to you (and others) that the market up here was run as tight as the US. Berliner was (G&T). However, he had his own company here. Yes, a immigrant from England (or wherever) may have come to North America with their prized machine......no question. However, the same could be said about an immigrant to the US.

I'm sure you know (as most of us do) third party stories from a vendor or even a family member are not always accurate. We all see that time and time again on the Antiques Roadshow.

Getting back to the machine in this thread...... that was clearly made for and sold in "Spain". If your theory about this machine "coming over" is correct.......I would again have to think the Southern border.....Mexico.... .

Case in point........my Paillard (Swiss) hot-air machine was found by me in Mexico. Was it a rich Mexican family traveling abroad that brought it back to Mexico??. Did Paillard have a sales office in Mexico City...??.
Based on all the research I have done......I will have to say the "latter". I could find no evidence of a sales office.
Ah, but now I have brought the machine back to Canada.........so, if I should move to the US.......did the machine now come from Canada.....???.... .
Harvey, I would reccomend getting a copy of "Roll Back The Years". It will give you a great insight of the Canadian side of machines.

USlakeside: I'm still trying to find the contact info of that Spanish collector. again, he will be able to provide you with lots of info. He has an outstanding collection of high end machines.

[Starkton]

These retail between $5000-7500 on the rare occasion they turn up.

This price is exaggerated for a medium-range Spanish HMV. $2500-3500 in good condition is more appropriate.

[Steve]

This price is exaggerated for a medium-range Spanish HMV. $2500-3500 in good condition is more appropriate.

Can you please provide a link to a Spanish catalogue showing the range? I've never seen one, sadly, but I'm not sure how anyone can readily identify what's "medium-range" otherwise? Presumably you must have access to one?

Can you also provide any evidence of available or recently sold machines that fall within your price range? I'm curious.

Thanks!

[Starkton]

Some time back we exchanged emails, and I wrote you that a Spanish HMV flagship model in perfect condition with wood horn made about $6800. The machine in question is beautiful, but classifies among the HMV "Monarch"-line, therefore my price approach. I will post it here when a similar machine is auctioned next time.

[Steve]

The machine in question is beautiful, but classifies among the HMV "Monarch"-line

Can the same not be said of USlakeside's machine though? That is a "Monarch" for all intents and purposes and for all we know might have even be classified as a Monarch. The case is certainly elaborate. As far as I know the wooden horns on Spanish models are identical to the US / UK type, apart from the decals obviously. There ARE variants including the two tone wood effects. To my eyes, the Spanish decorative flower horns with unique paint schemes make them more interesting than a standard wooden horn that can be bought on any US or UK model. The metal horns are similar to some of the Pathé types in shape and detail (were they made in the same factory in France?) and therefore are uniquely decorative on essentially a Victor based machine. Likewise, I'm not sure how much a wooden horn makes to one of these compared to the same addition on a more conventional Victor / HMV?

As for textbook values, I believe these machines are worth whatever you have to pay for them in a public auction. It's an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. In my opinion, there aren't enough of them in existence or readily up for grabs for a definitive price scale to be established for any specific model.

[gramophone78]

USlakeside........PM has been sent to you with the contact info.

Good luck...

[USlakeside]

I'm clearly biased and can't speculate on value based on sales I've seen either. However, after watching the markets for years, I do know that I have not seen another one. Even if its not a top of the line model, its certainly more scarce than say a Victor VI, which are available anytime. Wouldn't it be worth at least that price? Sometimes exotic machines have the setback of having parts that can't ever be found or replaced, but in this case this machine could be serviced by any Victor/G & T expert. But I think its true that value in this case is based on what someone is willing to pay at that time, since the market for these is so subjective.


I appreciate all the feedback and would hope to find more info or a catalog entry soon!

[USlakeside]

Here it is! From a 1909 Catalog for the French G & T offices for Barcelona. Courtesy of http://www.coleccionfb.com