The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

( Getting my popcorn and a comfy chair... )

De Soto Frank wrote:( Getting my popcorn and a comfy chair... )

I know what you mean, but I'm not going to start a flame war. My point is that everyone has their own particular tastes and sometimes they are contrary to what science tells us is "better".

If that weren't true no-one would listen to these wonderful old Phonographs that we hold so dear.

Fran

My antique car buddies pull that line on ME all the time...


I'm interested in this thread and the responses from a variety of perspectives:

1) I have a degree in Music Education, so therefore, by some metric, I am a "trained, classical musician".

2) One of my favorite eras of Classical Music is Baroque and pre-Baroque, especially modern "period-performances" - folks like Christopher Hogwood, Roger Norrington, John Elliot Gardner, etc.

3) I am a singer (lyric baritone), and sing in an eight-voice a-capella ensemble, specializing in "historically-informed" performances of vocal music ranging from late Medieval to the present.

4) I have what I consider to be a fairly "discriminating ear", in terms of intonation, timbre, dynamics...

5) I am old enough to have actually purchased brand-new classical LP recordings, taken the shrink-wrap off myself, and ( I swear to God ) on the first playing, been disgusted with "pops & clicks", not to mention turntable rumble, and other anomalies... frustrating, to say the least...


So, when Compact Disc records became mainstream format in the mid-1980's, I thought they were the greatest thing in world since Old Deaf Tom and his tin-foil cylinder.

No more pops & clicks, no rumble, no groove-jumping when some oaf lumbered through the room...

I can appreciate some of the passion for the argument between analogue and digital recording processes ( user format set aside for the moment ), but I find it VERY difficult to listen-to, let alone "enjoy" and focus on "the music" of a classical piece of music, when I have to suffer the pops & clicks, and other extra-musical noises that seem to be endemic with LP records. For me, the distraction outweighs any benefits of the "entire range of analog sound capture" afforded by the older technology.

So far, all of my statements are based on subjective, "emotional" observations, rather than by scientific research and documentation.

I'm interested in the "scientific" side of the picture, but ultimately, I am going to prefer what "sounds good" to my musician's ear.

In my twenties, I had a flirtation with being a piano tuner and technician, and for a time did tunings to supplement my income. After a few years, I gave it up, mostly because all the "bad pianos" out there were driving me crazy, and more importantly, I realized that to become a really good tuner / technician was going to require more time and study than I was willing to devote to a "hobby".

The main point of that history is that I did use a modern (digital) tuner to set the temperament octave, then do the rest by ear. The results were usually acceptable.

More often than not, I would reach a point in setting the temperament octave when I had to turn the tuner "off", and finish the temperament by ear, as doing it "by dead scientific" tuning just wasn't giving a good aural result.

All of which is to say, I believe there is probably some compromise between the science and the ear, and what "sounds right" to one listener, may not be palatable to another ?

I appreciate your candor.

I have to agree with the "pops and cracks" that are unavoidable at some point in a record's life.

I love my digital sources and listen to them much more frequently than my vinyl. But, some of my albums are not reproduced digitally, so if I want to hear them, a turntable is necessary. And, in all honesty, as you no doubt know, there are some absolutely horrible digital recordings.

One of my favorite digital recordings spanning both worlds is; Telarc's Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture - Kunzel - Cincinnati Pops (Released as multichannel Hybrid SACD and Digital Vinyl recording). I have it in both formats and if it weren't for the vinyl having one small scratch, that version would be my preference. Incidentally, the scratch occurred when my father and I listened to it at a significantly elevated sound pressure level with my Adcom GFA-555 driving my Altec Lansing model 17's (604-8G's). When the second or third cannon fire reported, the tonearm on my turntable bounced across the record.

I guess all things equal, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, anyhow.

Fran

So suffice it to say, for me, until I hit the lottery and can "do it right", which includes a dedicated room with proper acoustics, I don't think I'll be spending huge sums on hi-fi gear to play my lumpy 33's...


About 15 years ago, I "inherited" a huge library of Classical LPs from a retired music history prof. who had duplicated his LP inventory on CDs, and had to downsize... so I was the lucky recipient of about 30 liquor-store boxes of classical LPs from the later 1940's through to the end of LP production; mostly opera and vocal, piano, then orchestral.

Lots of classic Angel / EMI recordings from the 1950's and '60s...

It filled the 8ft box of my 1970 Ford pick-up from front to tailgate, and half-again with a second layer. I still haven't counted them all.

It would have cost me a fortune to assemble this on CD's.

So, a quality LP hi-fi is important to me, but I think I'll make-do with my 1970's Thorens turntable and Marantz tuner / amp, and Infinity speakers...

Just in case anybody was wondering, there is a video about the company on youtube:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1AEaIM59AQ[/youtube]


There are no videos of their speakers playing uploaded by anyone (that I have been able to find on youtube), though I'm not sure how much could be gleaned as to their quality through youtube.

I am not an expert on sound nor am I wealthy enough to try a bunch of things out, but here are a few points that come to my mind about this sort of topic:

1) I think it is bizarre that a company would claim conical horns are superior to exponential horns when most of us here find the opposite when listening to antiques using both types of horns.

2) Everything colors sound: the recording method, materials, diaphragm composition, horn shape and material, etc. So, if someone wants to shell out big bucks to own something that has their preferred "color," then more power to them. It is important to not claim that their preference is by default the superior or most perfect representation of the recorded sound, however.

It all boils down to personal preference in the end,
I think.

I still remember when compact disks first came
on the scene in the early 1980s. One very memorable
evening, I put on the headphones, sat back, and listened
to Schubert's "Great C Major" symphony. No clicks.
No pops. No stopping to turn the record over.

The dynamic range simply blew me right out of my chair!!

So, although I kind of wince and chuckle to myself
when I hear stuff about using 6 inch diameter
"monster cable" to go from the amplifier to the
speakers.... some of the audiophile stuff does make
some sense to me. Some other of their stuff...not so much.

But hey, there's plenty of room for everyone
and everyone's opinion. In the end, listening
is subjective. How does it sound to *you* ?

Our brains do not have digital readouts showing
total harmonic distortion nor any other measurable
value. This is where pure science and subjectivity
cross paths.

If someone feels good about spending $10,000 per
foot for 6 inch diameter speaker wires, then
that is fine for them.

Meanwhile, some even weirder folks than that
like the sound which comes out of an old
Edison "Standard Speaker".

There really is no "right" or "wrong" here.
It all boils down to what someone likes.
(In my humble opinion, anyway)

Chuck

Orchorsol wrote:

emgcr wrote:Sorry you are having difficulty Andy but it is very much worth persevering---amongst many other things, the section on 3D audio being developed at Princeton is riveting.

Will try to! Trouble is, it's not just the narrative text, I can't see the links to each of the pages either! All the writing just disappears into the (mostly) dark greyish tones of the background pictures. I'll try at work and see whether it's more visible on my computer there.

Not sure what that might be about. I get good contrast on the menus in both Internet Explorer and Firefox and most of the narrative text is black on white (or a very light gray).

Clay