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Clay, I'm glad that you're also now the owner of a model D Triumph as you're clearly more experienced in the antique phonograph community than I am--and therefore bound to advance both your and my knowledge about how this model works. Please do keep this thread alive and report on your various upgrades and discoveries, even if it spans over months and months.

One thing that has been perplexing me is this: I understand that it was in the life of the model D that it was switched from a 3-weight governor to a 4-weight, and the final Triumph models after that (E and F) were equipped with the 4-weight governor. I'm assuming that this switch from 3-weight to 4-weight as meant as an improvement--otherwise why make it? Working on that assumption, I have been trying to track down a 4-weight governor, but even a well-stocked supplier like George Vollema does not have one. Have you been pondering the relative virtues of the 4-weight governor? Have any of the readers here? One would assume that the greater mass would help smooth out flutter better than the 3-weight.

Ralph

Ralph, like you my working assumption is that the 4 weight meant a little improvement in a uniform, steady speed. Frow just says this with regard to the motor on the D model: "The Triton motor was modified for the model, having a more substantial 4-weight governor fitted, but earlier machines were sent out with the 3-weight type. With the new governor came a double friction pad on a self-centering stirrup, the motor remaining basically as before, but with a modified frame."

I am not certain whether the frame modification he mentions was to accommodate these changes, but I suspect that might have been the case and if so the newer style might not fit our earlier machines. In any event, unless it gives me trouble, I plan to leave mine original inasmuch as it is part of the machine's history. I just finished some lubrication of gears and bearings under the bedplate and mine runs well and is almost silent. I don't believe a complete disassemble and cleaning will be necessary. (Much to George V's relief, I expect, as he does that work for me and I know he is not fond of working on Triton springs.)

Will be posting a top-works question shortly.

Clay

If you find you have smooth operation, why change anything not required? In my case, though, I've been struggling with flutter and am still willing to try the four-weight governor if possible. If, as you suggest, the frame will not support such a modification, then it is what it is. But I'm holding out hope that, as the model designation did not change with the new governor (it remained model D), there were no critical changes in the rest of the machine.

OK--that's all I have to add. Will go back to observer mode.

I'd be hesitant to switch governors unless there's a problem. Even switching to another three weight could introduce new problems such as increased noise.

I'm a bit of a Triumph fan, having among others B, D2 & E all set up with cygnets. There is no noticeable difference in how well they run. The E is possibly the best runner but that's likely because its in the living room and gets used a lot.

Now moving on to the top works. By and large, it looks pretty good mechanically except that the shaft with the mandrel, feed screw, etc. moves laterally too much. Likely as a result of this there is too much play between the belt pulley and the speed adjuster so that they will separate completely. I think the issue is that two set screws are missing, one from the belt pulley and one from what I will call the ring on the right end of the feed screw. See the picture. Both these holes are threaded. As to the ring on the right end of the feed screw, it has a second set screw which is in place and which is located on a little flat area on the bracket.

Am I correct that there should set screws in these locations and, if so, anybody know a source for them?

Clay

Clay, you are correct. Also that adjustable pin that goes through the stantion needs to be moved right or left to be just right and then tightened in order for both the 2 & 4 minute gearing to both work. It's a pain to get all that adjusted right. You just need to play around with it. I don't know how to describe it better. Perhaps someone else can?

I got into this thread a little late, so forgive me if I restate some of what has already been addressed.
Congratulations on your new Triumph. The model D was the first combination model, introduced in 1908, which is what you have. Frow is non-specific about the timing of the governor changeover, as well as the spiral oil groove being added to the carriage rod. The Model D was not drilled for a cygnet mount, as the cygnet horn was not developed until a year or 2 later. The D was provided with a 12 panel straight horn, the largest on any Edison cylinder machine.
When the cygnet horn was added, the model designation was changed from D to D-2. The angled carriage was retained through the run of the D series. D-2 cabinets, of course are factory drilled for the cygnet bracket.
I have 2 Triumphs, a D equipped as it came from the factory and a D-2 which has been upgraded to a horizontal carriage and a Music Master oak bell cygnet horn (the first cygnets were all metal, the wood versions came slightly later). Except for the governors, the mechanical features of my two machines are virtually identical. Neither machine has a grooved carriage rod. As far as the governors are concerned, once everything is clean, lubricated and adjusted properly, I notice no difference in speed regulation. Flutter is extremely low to the point of being indiscernible, although through using different cylinders for testing I have discovered that all cylinders are not equal with regards to flutter. Some are very steady and a few are poor.
So, as far as changing governors, it is not worth the effort and expense, even if you don't consider originality. There are two 3 main things that can affect governor performance: spring condition, differences in weights and pad lubrication. I have found that pad lubrication is very important. I acquired my Model D with the three ball governor about a anyear ago and, of course everything in the motor was bone dry. I gave it a general lube, generously oiled the governor pad and it ran very well. Then it sat for a few months, and when I tried to run it again, it had high flutter. I ended up tearing it down for a proper clean, lube and adjustment. When I got to the governor pad, I saw that it was completely glazed over with dried oil. I had to scrape the surface and soak the arm assembly in oil for a few days to re-saturate it. It works very well now.
One more comment then I will end this long-winded ramble. The motor frames for the 3 and 4 ball governor versions are different and are not backwards compatible, ie: you can change a 4 ball motor to a 3, but not the other way around.
Hope this helps you get things running well so you can get the the satisfaction your machine is capable of giving.

Feel free to PM me if I can be of any further help.

Jim

If you go to the Wyatt's Musical Americana website, there is a section that has how-to articles. There is a discussion of the problem you are having with the 2/4 min gearing, and you can print this out for future reference. It also list the parts you need. Wyatt carries them. This helped me with my Triumph problems.
Harvey Kravitz

Valecnik wrote:Clay, you are correct. Also that adjustable pin that goes through the stantion needs to be moved right or left to be just right and then tightened in order for both the 2 & 4 minute gearing to both work. It's a pain to get all that adjusted right. You just need to play around with it. I don't know how to describe it better. Perhaps someone else can?

Thanks much Harvey. I buy things from Wyatt's frequently and plan to order a horn crane from them anyhow, so I will just add that to the list. Printing off the article now. It looks like just what I need. For others who might find it helpful, here is the link:

http://www.wyattsmusical.com/2-4mech.html

Clay

Jim,

Could you clarify on the governors not being backwards compatible. Do you mean a D2 with 3 weight governor cannot use a 4 weight but an E could use a 3 weight?

Strangely, I've got a D2 with a 4 weight and an E with a three weight and they both work fine, as does another E I have with a four weight.