The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hi Fran. Nope, I'm not set up for micro-photography (though I'm otherwise a natural at being small-minded Must be Friday if I'm upbeat enough to engage in that sort of self-deprecating humor).

I do have some friends/colleagues, though, who have that capability and are ready to scan my Edison stylus, etc. once I'm truly ready to throw in the towel.

For stylus pins I use tiny steel drill bits I purchase at my local hobby shop. The size I usually get is a #71. I'm not sure what that number means. Take your stylus to a hobby shop and test fit until you get the right size. You'll have to cut the bit to the correct length. I usually buy ones that are slightly larger than I need and then reduce the diameter by turning the bit in an electric drill while I squeeze fine sandpaper around the shank. With a little trial and error you can get a perfect fit.
Dave Jolley

Discman wrote:For stylus pins I use tiny steel drill bits I purchase at my local hobby shop. The size I usually get is a #71. I'm not sure what that number means. Take your stylus to a hobby shop and test fit until you get the right size. You'll have to cut the bit to the correct length. I usually buy ones that are slightly larger than I need and then reduce the diameter by turning the bit in an electric drill while I squeeze fine sandpaper around the shank. With a little trial and error you can get a perfect fit.
Dave Jolley

Those little drills are known as "wire drills". The #71 you mention is 0.026 (twenty-six thousands) inch diameter. You can find a complete chart of wire drill sizes here: http://www.custompartnet.com/drill-size-chart

Ralph,

With all due respect to you and everyone
else here, who are using and enjoying Edison
Diamond Disc machines, here is my take on it.

I'm still on the outside looking in, as I have
not yet gotten any Diamond Disc machines.
I've been looking at them for many years
and still have not found the right one.

What I do know about them is this: The pressure on the stylus is immense! That weight is about the heaviest darn thing I've
ever seen, and the very fact that any
phenolic resin compound could ever be found
which can stand up to that pressure even
for a few plays, is simply remarkable!

(Or is it markable?) Pun intended.

What I'm getting at here is that as we all
can easily recognize, this system must be in
absolute perfect condition in order for it
to work right and not instantly destroy
the records.

Here's a few very humble suggestions I have.

Dave's idea of using the #71 drill bit as
a pin is a very good one. The more precise
the pin fits, the better off the whole system
will be.

I myself would not attempt any such repairs
without at least having a dial calipers handy
to measure the diameter of the pin, so I can
see what I'm doing.

Go to http://www.mpja.com to see a few
very reasonably priced sets of dial
calipers.

Looking in from the outside on these Diamond
Disc machine issues gets me thinking about it
in the same terms as the fitting up and
adjustment of an automatic recorder.

There, the same sort of a situation is at
hand. There must be a precision fit of the
pin for the stylus bar and also a similar
fit for the swinging weight pivot. Both must
be perfect in order for the thing to work
right.

The absolute minimum required tools to work
on stuff like this is a set of dial calipers
so you can see what you're doing.

I like Dave's suggestion of turning the
pin in a drill-chuck, and sanding off
a few tenths of a thousandth off the outside
diameter, in order to gain the exact fit
you want. A micrometer would even get
you a bit more accuracy, but a dial calipers
will do. You can get a set from MPJA for
less than 20 bucks.

Again, I really am in awe of what you guys
are doing with these DD machines! They sure
sound great when they are working right, but
jeez....THAT is a LOT of weight!!!

I hefted the weight of a Dance reproducer
one time, and I simply could not believe
how massive that weight is on there.
Has anyone ever attempted to calculate the
point-loading in PSI when that diamond traces
across that flat surface in the runout area?
Whatever it is, it's got to be way, way up
there!!! It's simply a miracle this system
works at all, in my extremely humble view.

Chuck

Chuck wrote:Ralph,

With all due respect to you and everyone
else here, who are using and enjoying Edison
Diamond Disc machines, here is my take on it.

I'm still on the outside looking in, as I have
not yet gotten any Diamond Disc machines.
I've been looking at them for many years
and still have not found the right one.

What I do know about them is this: The pressure on the stylus is immense! That weight is about the heaviest darn thing I've
ever seen, and the very fact that any
phenolic resin compound could ever be found
which can stand up to that pressure even
for a few plays, is simply remarkable!

(Or is it markable?) Pun intended.

What I'm getting at here is that as we all
can easily recognize, this system must be in
absolute perfect condition in order for it
to work right and not instantly destroy
the records.

Here's a few very humble suggestions I have.

Dave's idea of using the #71 drill bit as
a pin is a very good one. The more precise
the pin fits, the better off the whole system
will be.

I myself would not attempt any such repairs
without at least having a dial calipers handy
to measure the diameter of the pin, so I can
see what I'm doing.

Go to http://www.mpja.com to see a few
very reasonably priced sets of dial
calipers.

Looking in from the outside on these Diamond
Disc machine issues gets me thinking about it
in the same terms as the fitting up and
adjustment of an automatic recorder.

There, the same sort of a situation is at
hand. There must be a precision fit of the
pin for the stylus bar and also a similar
fit for the swinging weight pivot. Both must
be perfect in order for the thing to work
right.

The absolute minimum required tools to work
on stuff like this is a set of dial calipers
so you can see what you're doing.

I like Dave's suggestion of turning the
pin in a drill-chuck, and sanding off
a few tenths of a thousandth off the outside
diameter, in order to gain the exact fit
you want. A micrometer would even get
you a bit more accuracy, but a dial calipers
will do. You can get a set from MPJA for
less than 20 bucks.

Again, I really am in awe of what you guys
are doing with these DD machines! They sure
sound great when they are working right, but
jeez....THAT is a LOT of weight!!!

I hefted the weight of a Dance reproducer
one time, and I simply could not believe
how massive that weight is on there.
Has anyone ever attempted to calculate the
point-loading in PSI when that diamond traces
across that flat surface in the runout area?
Whatever it is, it's got to be way, way up
there!!! It's simply a miracle this system
works at all, in my extremely humble view.

Chuck

Great observation, Chuck. Not only is the weight of the reproducer a factor, but also the full weight of the horn system is employed. When lowering the stylus for playback the horn is supported vertically with a rather substantial shaft that pivots at its' lower end in the cabinet and its' top end at the top plate. If the height isn't adjusted properly, it's easy to understand how the stylus bar link and/or the diaphragm could be overwhelmed by the weight of it all. Of course the reproducer weight has only so much travel and would limit its' vertical travel, but still, a lot of weight is a lot of weight!

Fran

HisMastersVoice wrote:Ralph,

I've been having similar problems as well. I was going to start a thread about it, but I think I'll just join yours if you don't mind.

My reproducer has an original diaphragm, new gaskets, a cleaned and oiled floating weight pivot, and a perfect diamond that was checked under a microscope. The limit pin rides perfectly in the center of the loop until it exits the final groove, then the floating weight shifts to the left (if you are standing in front of the machine) and the pin is in contact with the loop at that point. Before I changed the stylus, I was noticing some record wear, which seemed to stop after installing the new one. However, now I am noticing scoring on the "dead wax", which did not happen with the old one. This happens on most but not all discs I have tried. The only thing I can see that isn't as it should be is a slight side to side play on the new stylus bar. I put a small dab of grease on each side of the stylus pivot to reduce any possible lateral vibrations, but that didn't seem to have any effect on the scoring. Other than that, the reproducer sounds fantastic and I'm not noticing any wear on the grooves. Should I be concerned? (I am... )

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MY CONCLUSIONS

I feel obliged to produce at least a clear opinion about this problem, having involved so many of you in it.

I'm starting off by quoting Brandon extensively, as I feel he's come closest to identifying the issue.

Over the past 24 hours I have switched my three styli and diaphragms in two separate reproducers. One of the reproducers acts exactly as Brandon describes; its lower weight is flexible enough that when the stylus leaves the grooves the limit pin quickly shifts left and rests against the left side of the limit loop. The other reproducer, however, demonstrates a "stiffer" lower weight action--and when the stylus leaves the grooves the limit pin REMAINS basically in the center of the limit loop, even when travelling though the blank run-off area.

This difference seems to have something to do with the "stiffer weight" reproducer being anchored at back with THREE screws, whereas the looser weight one has only two screws anchoring at rear.

Guess which set up produces scoring in the run-off (dead) zone? The looser one; the one that allows the limit pin to ride against the limit loop. My theory is that there is enough abrasion/vibration being produced in that point of contact (metal on metal) between limit pin and limit loop that is then being directed into the stylus--producing record scoring.

Also, the more vertical motion there is (generated by any record that is not perfectly flat), the more energy is being produced by the "abrasion" of limit pin on limit loop--and the more scoring is being produced in the run-off area by the stylus.

When I had one of the styli in the "stiffer" set up it produced no scoring in the run-off area; when I switched the SAME stylus to the other reproducer with the "looser" set up, it produced scoring.

RELATED CONCLUSIONS

I started off by assuming that the styli and the diaphragms were the culprits. Lots of my time went into replacing and checking these over the past few months. Not that these (plus a good stylus pin) aren't important; and like Luke said, an Edison DD machine and records are fussy things that require all elements to work well. But when it comes to "scoring" in the run-off area, it's not an issue of diaphragm compliance, necessarily; nor a bad stylus (necessarily). Brandon and I have both had the maddening experience of making sure that we had good styli and diaphragms, but still were experiencing run-off scoring.

One thing I have learned is that run-off (dead zone) scoring is NOT a good test of the stylus. Someone posted that opinion in another thread; can't remember who--but now their remark takes on significance. For a GOOD stylus can produce scoring--IF the limit pin is rubbing against the limit loop--and ESPECIALLY if the disc has definite areas of warp...and a bad stylus might NOT leave scoring if it rides into the dead zone while the limit pin remains centered in the limit loop.

So, there's my conclusions. I'm now confident than two of my three styli are in good shape and I'm ready to resume playing DDs--but will make sure that my automatic shut off is set so that the stylus will not travel too far into the dead zone IF it's part of a reproducer that has a "loose" lower weight and which allows the limit pin to ride against the limit loop in the dead zone.

What do you all think? Test my theory for yourselves. I'm pretty confident of it as it's based on a good deal of observation and experimentation.

Ralph

ac.

Edisone wrote:Somewhat random thoughts:

Slight marking on blank parts appears on almost every Edison disc I've ever seen - it's missing only on never-played dealer stock. Damage to records will appear as scrapes in the grooves & grit collected on the diamond, and heard as extra surface noise when playing. I suspect that the faint lines on blank parts are just the scraping-off of a waxy coating or the varnish ingredients of lead resinate ("ShinO") or Sandarac.

Thanks, Edisone. But I have to disagree here. I've seen plenty of DDs that show plenty of use but still have clean (no scoring) run-off areas. As for my statement about the stylus bar being tucked between the shoulders pretty firmly--well that's true, but every time I reinstall it I make sure it flexes adequately--and I too have sanded it to make sure that it moves freely.

We all have our individual experiences and takes on the Edison DD machines--and we help each other greatly. So no disrespect intended. It's just that, unlike you, I don't believe that the Edison system was foolproof--if one just religiously follows the Edison literature (Matthew, Mark, Luke, Diamond Disc manual). In fact, as Chuck indicated above, it requires all sorts of fussing to keep it working properly. It DOES require fooling with, and if that makes us fools and "fussers," so be it.

The only way to avoid fooling with a DD machine is to lock it away somewhere or trash it--or cut off your arms--or puncture your eardrums...

Edison thought he had perfected his machine in 1888, but couldn't help himself and went on to do a FEW more things with it. I think the man was a bit fussy too.

I'll also add to this, that I've tried both unplayed dealer stock as well as "well loved" discs, and have had mixed results. I've played a couple dealer stock discs and some show scoring and some do not, and I've seen the same thing with used discs. I've also tried placing the stylus on the lead-in area to see if it happens there as well and I have observed that it does not. The limit pin seems to ride in the center at the beginning, so you may be onto something here. Does the weight shift at the end because of increased centrifugal force or something? Is this considered normal operation? What does it all mean? Do I even exist or am I just part of Edison's consciousness?

Another factor which has not been mentioned
yet is that of the varying surface speed
which happens at the outside, vs the inside
of any disc record.

In rough terms, when you calculate it out
by figuring the circumference of a groove
at any particular location on the disc, by
taking pi times the diameter, and then using that length of the trip around the disc at that point, and then multiplying that distance
times 80 to get inches per minute, then dividing by 60 to get inches per second....

roughly what you will see when you do this
calculation is that the surface speed is
about twice as fast on the outside, as it
is on the inside.

Now then, combine this with the change in
direction (the apparent "angle" of the
sharpness of the "bend" that the spiral
groove has), being a sharper bend on the inside and a gentler bend on the outside....these factors combine to gang-up and create the situation where the thing tends to want to score the runout area at the inside, but apparently tends to not do it so much at the outside.

Now, combine all of that with what Ralph has
already observed about when the limit pin
rubs against the straight edge of the limit
loop, that creates just enough more friction
to start the scoring...

This all is a great testimony to the fact
that this whole DD system has to be operating
right up on the hairy edge of having so
much weight that it just hardly takes anything
to set it off into destructo territory.

My thought is this: The Edison DD system has
almost got to hold the all-time record for
the absolute heaviest-weighted jewel stylus
playback system ever yet devised by mankind.

To me, the die was cast for it, the handwriting for it was on the wall already
with the "Diamond" series of cylinder
reproducers. Those weights on those things
are heavy, heavy hunks of metal too.
Set one of those down on a black wax amberol
record by mistake, and guess what? (no more
record!)

So, yeah, Blue Amberols were the start of
making something which could stand up to
*extreme* weight. The DDs followed suit.

Hey, you know....??

No wonder when vacuum tube amplifiers were
first devised and much lighter electric
pickups were made....that was considered
real advancement.

We are seeing now first-hand why the brute-force method of having the record groove itself power the diaphragm directly under
the influence of a weight approximately the
same as that of a railroad locomotive, that it might not work real great some of the time.

Again, I find the fact that Edison was able
to come up with a phenolic resin compound
for this application which worked even
a little bit, (much less as a commercially
viable thing), simply a miracle!

After reading about these DD issues and thinking about all that weight, I cringe
every time I consider that diamond point being
set down on those records.

Now, take all of that and add in the whole
business about the inferior grade of repro
DD styli which break down, crack, wear out
and give extremely poor results, I am not
sure I am in any sort of a hurry to get my
first DD machine. I would if I could find
a few NOS genuine Edison DD styli. But I am
not going to even bother messing with those
UK ones....

Chuck