The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Harold, thanks once again for clarifying all that. Very much appreciated.

Phototone, what you've suggested is very sensible -- especially the part about the royalties. Why spend anything extra on the dime-store releases?

I think Columbia snuck (sneaked) some electrical recordings on the budget labels by omitting the W prefix. Some time you have to just listen to them.

But...but...that puts us right back where we started!

edisonplayer wrote, "Columbia didn't use the W in a circle for their electric recordings on their budget labels until about 1932."

You may be correct. What you write has a familiar ring to it, but I can't place where I read it, if in fact I did. So, sorry to mislead folks, if I did!

edisonplayer also wrote, "I'm not sure why they didn't use it earlier."

If Columbia did this, they probably did it to avoid paying Western Electric royalties when using the latter's system on recordings issued on Columbia's budget labels. This would also explain why the labels never let you know there's an electric recording on them. Probably Columbia had to change course in the early 1930s because someone at Western Electric figured this out. Someday I hope to read Geoffrey Wheeler's Columbia book and see if he has anything to say about this issue.

Harold Ahearn wrote, "Annette Hanshaw was billed under her own name on VT, but early Harmonys show her as "Gay Ellis". Her Helen Kane impersonations went out as "Dot Dare" on Harmony and "Patsy Young" on VT."

For what it's worth, Ms. Hanshaw also appears as "Dot Dare" on Diva 2792-G.

Phototone wrote, "Somewhere I read that Columbia had just rennovated, and upgraded their acoustical recording process when the decision was made to adopt the Western Electric process. It would seem that they would want to get their investment back by using it for a few years on their dime-store labels."

I have read this, too, but I have always wondered about its accuracy because the acoustic recording process Columbia used before switching to electric recording is so much superior to the process they used on their budget labels. In the notes to "Fletcher Henderson: The Harmony & Vocalion Sessions Volume 1 1925-1926," Timeless CBC 1064 (compact disc), noted transfer engineer John R. T. Davies opines that Columbia's budget labels in fact used a crude, non-Western Electric electrical recording system, which would account for 1) its inferiority to Columbia's earlier acoustic recording process and 2) the uniformity of the budget labels' distinctive "boxy" sound.

Best wishes, Mark

I find that acoustic Harmony discs sound excellent. Generally I've never been much impressed with the sound quality of U.S. Columbia acousticals from the pre-electric days.

Which is also why they snuck in the odd unmarked electrical side in the Harmony lists: so they could avoid the royalty payment to Western Electric.


Jim

I have "Dixie Jamboree"by Rudy Marlow and His Orchestra on Harmony.That definetly IS electric!I played it on my Credenza yesterday.edisonplayer

I'm always grabbing good Harmonys when I see them and electrical Harmony discs are not at all uncommon to find.

In proportion, maybe 1 electric to 4-5 acoustic discs - seems to me anyhow.

But, IIRC, acoustic matrices were done all the way to 1930. Harmony was the last to issue them, from what's been reported.

edisonplayer wrote:I have "Dixie Jamboree"by Rudy Marlow and His Orchestra on Harmony.That definetly IS electric!I played it on my Credenza yesterday.edisonplayer

That's a Fred Rich side. The Columbia affiliate budget labels are interesting as a lot of them are instrumental versions of sides issued on Columbia or OKeh with vocal refrains and a hot soloist usually fills in the part that's the vocal on the Columbia issue. Some of these same matrices were issued on the rare green Columbia "X" labels pressed for export. Some really hard to find gems are pressed under names like "Rudy Marlow"- such as the all instrumental and great version of Lanin's "Kicking A hole In The Sky" which substitutes a hot Tommy Dorsey trombone solo for the Scrappy Lambert vocal that appears on the Columbia version- then there is Selvin's "Don't Ever Leave Me" in a non- vocal take issued as by Perley Stevens.

I have some of the last Velvetones.They say"Electrically Recorded"on the label as do Clarions.The last Harmony records(all from c.1932)do not say this.However,there is still no W in a circle.Diva was discontinued in 1930.I was wondering why the last Velvetone records and Clarion say"Electrically Recorded"and not the last Harmony?edisonplayer