The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Curt A wrote:

Phonofreak wrote:I've seen this seller many times on ebay and now he is selling on Rubylane. There is something very funny about the back bracket. I can't put my finger on this, but it does not look like a typical Victor or HMV bracket. Yet, the elbow and arm fit. But I can't tell if it is a legitimate fit, or the bracket was modified to make the parts fit. Just my observation.
Harvey Kravitz

I agree... and I think after looking at the picture again, it appears to be made up.

I would say the back bracket appears to be normal. However, the photo in question is very poor and the illusion of the "rolled & soldered " is actually the reflection of the photographer themselves... .
The real give away is looking at the "other" pics of the bracket. These show a clearly "cast" bracket.

Here is a video http://youtu.be/sD3kUJEuGZw but no close-up than the reproducer.

doublemike wrote:Here is a video http://youtu.be/sD3kUJEuGZw but no close-up than the reproducer.

Sounds like he (over) restored everything but the sound box.
Joe

Looking at the very first photo of this thread, it seems as though the taper tube is way too high off the surface of the turntable platter! On my XI (admittedly a very different beast), I measure the distance from the center of the goose neck pivot to the tt surface at 1-⅝"; this "thing" pictured here looks a good three inches, by guesstimate, strongly suggesting a mismatch of the back bracket. In consequence, the tracking angle of needle to record surface would be much steeper than the "normal" 60º, approaching the vertical---wouldn't it? Sure looks odd to me!

The Banus Banus family have made gramophones in Barcelona since the early 1900s , they were a Victor " Franchise" and assembled machines , they have never stopped making machines many put together with disparate parts , some even ending up in museums , this one with a 1920.s motor fitted to a metal box for instance
http://www.funjdiaz.net/gramofonos/ficha.cfm?id=64

They made quite nice modern horns which can be seen here

http://www.coleccionfb.com/firmas_catalanas_3.htm

The gramophone shown is undoubtedly a Banus Banus machine , the transfer on the front is from a horn not a machine , these transfers were available on Ebay

its a original hmv from the barcelona factories they made pretty ornate machines
its strange that the forreighn hmv factories made these typical machines while the middlesex factory made machines that are somestimes plain to the point of boring
other hmv factory locations that had their own line of machines where
barcelona spain
paris france
st petersburg russia
berlin germany (after 1933)
dum-dum calcutta india (the same factory that is used to produce crapophones today)
bombay india (today also used for producing crapo's)


ps the red horn on the machine above is a Pathé horn

the illusion of the "rolled & soldered " is actually the reflection of the photographer

???

tinovanderzwan wrote: its strange that the forreighn hmv factories made these typical machines while the middlesex factory made machines that are somestimes plain to the point of boring
other hmv factory locations that had their own line of machines where
...
berlin germany (after 1933)

Deutsche Grammophon A.G. of Berlin had its own line of machines at least from 1902. In addition, some more elaborate cases, like the "Melba," were, until 1911, manufactured in Germany and exported to Great Britain.

tinovanderzwan wrote:its a original hmv from the barcelona factories they made pretty ornate machines
its strange that the forreighn hmv factories made these typical machines while the middlesex factory made machines that are somestimes plain to the point of boring
other hmv factory locations that had their own line of machines where
barcelona spain
paris france
st petersburg russia
berlin germany (after 1933)
dum-dum calcutta india (the same factory that is used to produce crapophones today)
bombay india (today also used for producing crapo's)


ps the red horn on the machine above is a Pathé horn

No, the red horn is not a Pathé horn. Superficially they might be similar but Pathé horns have a screw thread end and that red horn differs in other respects of design including the conical section. It is my opinion though that the horn is probably made by the same place that also made Pathé horns. I've said this before. There are a few similarities between them. We DO know that the French HMV company was directly responsible for the Spanish operation so it is conceivable that they sub-contracted to a French horn manufacturer who had the pattern and also supplied Pathé.

The original machine in this thread is not an unrestored original machine though. I sincerely doubt its provenance. Yes, the Spanish company did make some impressive pieces including the Model 9 and the Deluxe shown in your top photo but they all have a minimum standard of build quality. The machine in the original poster's question does not meet the same standard and I still say it is suspect. You only have to ask why do the genuine machines sell quickly for a lot of money and yet this machine has been for sale forever and no one has bitten yet whilst it's at a third of the price of a genuine machine - this should set the alarm bells ringing.

Starkton correctly makes reference to the German made cabinets for Melbas etc but it is also my belief that the German factory also made all the Spanish cabinets too. The '9' is very similar in construction and style to the Melba pedestal. The way the cabinets are put together is typical of the German manufactured items. So German cabinet + French horn (not Pathé) = Spanish machine!

Looking at your pictures, I'd also question if, strictly speaking, that Cockle-shell Monarch should have a wooden horn and the bottom machine is a badly repaired / restored G & T period Spanish Monarch. I saw that on eBay over a year ago and it was a right old mess with poorly remade moldings that were unequal in height and width. It was another botched repair. I also think it has been "assembled" in recent years too. Nothing fitted correctly together if I recall.

Starkton wrote:

tinovanderzwan wrote: its strange that the forreighn hmv factories made these typical machines while the middlesex factory made machines that are somestimes plain to the point of boring
other hmv factory locations that had their own line of machines where
...
berlin germany (after 1933)

Deutsche Grammophon A.G. of Berlin had its own line of machines at least from 1902. In addition, some more elaborate cases, like the "Melba," were, until 1911, manufactured in Germany and exported to Great Britain.

unlike the russian, indian, french, and spanish machines the early d.g.a.g. machines where in the brittish catalogues
you could order the melba or the tetrazzini without problems
the post 1933 machines (i call them the hitler hmv's)where only for germany
they where made by different factories all over the reich