The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I just located and read an online copy of original setup and operating instructions for the Amberola phonographs by the Edison factory. There is no mention about playing cylinders with the lid closed. From this I gather that the factory never suggested customers lower the Amberola lid during playing to improve sound (as later recommended by Victor for their Orthophonics).

Maybe the Edison folks thought that people could not be bothered with raising and lowering the lid while listening to music? Maybe they thought that customers could not tell the difference?

Also I just did an informal scan of Youtube videos showing Victor Credenzas in operation. There seem to be many more videos where the lid is up while playing discs, compared to where the lid is down. Perhaps the majority of phonograph collectors are interested mainly in the visual aspects of the hobby, versus striving to have each machine deliver the best possible fidelity for its configuration and era.

Just my observation...

If your manual is from the period of the 30/50/75 model it probably wouldn't. These machines leave enough room around the horn to allow the motor sound out anyway, so I'm not sure there is much point to closing the lid. Perhaps the earlier models with the fixed horn recommended closing the lid>

The main purpose behind lid-closing on any phonograph is to enhance sound quality by eliminating two sources of undesired sound.

One of these sources is the tinny scratch of the needle or stylus on the surface of the record. Yes, it's part of the recorded output, but it's generated in a way that gives only a small, higher-frequency (and mostly irritating) part of the range of the recording.

The other is the sound off the face of the reproducer's diaphragm that is not facing the connection to the horn. The back side of the diaphragm is at one end of the (ideally air-tight) sound passage to and through the horn. The front side is connected to the stylus or needle bar, and is at least partially open to its surroundings. Sound waves come off of both faces of the diaphragm...but they are out of phase with each other since one comes from the "push" corresponding to the simultaneous "pull" of the motion of stylus or needle. And out of phase waves tend to want to cancel each other.

The front side sound waves will be mainly higher frequencies, which bounce around pretty well, off of nearby cabinet faces or the surface of the record itself. And when they reach your ears along with the same material from the horn, it makes things not sound so good.

Hence, given the choice, we're better off closing the lid.

P.S. There are, of course, exceptions to this. Many portables and some tabletops use their lids as reflectors that extend the effective horn size, so unless the horn exit is outside of the lid you must of course keep it open. I've also seen little gizmos that mount a small horn onto a disc reproducer to capture and project that front side sound...I've never heard one in action, but probably not a very good idea!

Jerry B. wrote:Just because I wouldn't do it doesn't mean it wouldn't have value for you and others. I see your reasoning. It does muddy the water downstream for future collectors. A collector friend talked about taking Amberola V mechanisms and placing them in reproduction Opera cabinets. I believe there was talk at the Edison factory suggesting the same thing but it never happened. If the collector had done so, it would have been an interesting but make believe machine. Future unsuspecting collectors would be taken in by the unintended but fraudulent machine. If you do convert an Amberola to play wax cylinders, please leave a note inside stating what you did and threatening bad phono karma for anyone that removes the provenance note from the cabinet. Jerry Blais

I am not certain you understand the nature of the issue. There is a simple spacer on the Amberola VIII B version that locks out the two minute gearing. Remove it and you have a 2/4 minute machine. Do you consider this a phono karma faux pas? I can replace the spacer in about 5 seconds.

In my opinion, any reversible mod is an ok mod, as long as anything complex gets documented for future observers so they know the story. Write it up, and put the note safely inside the machine so it doesn't get lost or damaged. Even that may not be necessary, because the standard configurations of all except the rarest of the machines are well known...so a competent restorer can readily set it back to normal. I guess the line needs to be drawn at any sort of cutting or brazing or bending, or even painting, for that matter.

Another slice on this, though, might be something along these lines...

Rural New England farmer Josh W. and his wife Nancy have a modest collection of 2-minute wax cylinders that they enjoy playing on the Edison Standard phonograph they bought back in '05. On their annual trip into Boston, they stop by the Edison Shop, and see a new type of Edison, an Amberoller (or something like that). Nancy is beside herself because she has always disliked trying to dust the big horn on their phonograph, and she tells Josh she wants them to get one.

But when the proprietor tells them it plays only those new 4-minute records, the deal is off. They have all those older ones at home, and they like them. But that's ok, says the dealer, I know a neat trick. He pulls out a couple of tools, puts an old reproducer in a little ring and mounts it on the phonograph, and moments later, it's playing a 2-minute record. Sold!

Decades later, a phonograph collector attends a barn sale near the hamlet of Punkin Center. He finds a dusty Amberola VIII in a dry corner. Lying inside is a Diamond B reproducer, but mounted in the carriage is a Model C reproducer in an adaptor ring. Looking more closely he notices a little gearshift knob on the side of the gear cluster housing, just like that on the Fireside A he has at home...

He purchases it, along with a box filled with records by some guy named Cal Stewart. When he gets home, he logs on to the The Talking Machine Forum and posts a few photos of his find. Comments abound, and include..."Never saw that before!" "Can't possibly be original!" "What a terrible thing for someone to have done!" "Possible factory prototype?" "Rare one-off!" "Probably custom-made for Theodore Edison!" "Some collector screwed around with it! Let's hunt him down and make him pay for his sins!" "Put it on eBay! You'll make thousands!"

...to which he answers, "it's kinda cool, and I'm going to enjoy it."

PeterF, I'm with you on that fun little scenario.

It's quite likely that the Edison dealers were more flexible than we previously imagined. I think they had to be. Dealers needed to convince the public to buy their machines, and retain their existing customers in the face of stiff competition. Plus the Edison factory had a pattern of coming late to the market with improvements. The large factory Edison horns did not arrive until 1907. The four minute cylinder came out in reaction to the three minute 10" disc and four minute 12" disc. And of course the diamond disc was a later attempt to keep up with rivals Victor and Columbia.

I can relate a true story about an Edison machine in my family. My great-grandparents were married in 1903. One of their wedding presents was a Triumph Model A. Was it delivered with the factory witch's hat horn? Nope, the Edison dealer in Cleveland packaged it with a 36" straight brass horn, which it retains to this day. My great-grandparents used that 1903 machine for a number of years, but eventually they put the Triumph away in the attic. Was their next machine an Edison Diamond Disc? Nope, it was a Victor Orthophonic.

Hi David,

Yes, I have a Fireside with a Diamond B reproducer. It was the first cylinder phonograph I bought at my first CAPS Show and Sale, back in 1998, in Buena Park, CA. I use that to listen to most all of my blue amberol's and 2 and 4 minute Indestructibles. And, yes, it has a cygnet horn. So, my Amberola VIII doesn't get much playing time! It is much louder through the cygnet. I like the fireside motor--virtually the same as a Standard, but with a shorter winding crank, and a couple of gears reversed in the gear cluster. You can, in fact, take any Standard motor, and attach the shorter winding crank, and it will fit right into your Fireside project machine that is missing its motor. Only a real "purist" would notice, by looking at the configuration of the gears in the gear cluster, that it is a Standard motor in a Fireside machine. Some of the Fireside/Standard machines can run really nicely and quietly. I hope I don't get a lot of comments from Uncle Josh about having messed up perfectly good machines! LOL!!

Take care, and enjoy your VIII!

Mike

Ah, if Edison had just been able to package the cygnet horn into an Amberola cabinet. Now that would have been a nice sounding piece of furniture! (as the phonograph enthusiast slips off into a daydream.... [I do believe in Santa Claus, I do believe in Santa Claus....])

David

fourforty wrote:Ah, if Edison had just been able to package the cygnet horn into an Amberola cabinet. Now that would have been a nice sounding piece of furniture! (as the phonograph enthusiast slips off into a daydream.... [I do believe in Santa Claus, I do believe in Santa Claus....])

David

The Amberola 1A and 1B are pretty close to that dream - and they sound like it!

George P.

Hi George,

I envy you for your nice Amberola 1A and 1B machines. If only every collector who wanted to own one could have one. Alas, there are not enough of them to go around for all of us to enjoy.

The best sounding Edison I have heard so far is Tom Kimble's "Ediphonic" machine. Just imagine this sound packaged into a fine furniture cabinet, ala Amberola:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhLjcfswHb0
And the sound you hear on the video is from a garden variety youtube smartphone recording. Imagine actually being in the room!

Since I have been doing a lot of wishing lately, here's another one. I wish that the Tom Kimble "Ediphonic" horn was being produced for the market. Seems to me that if original Edison cygnet horns can be copied, then the Ediphonic can be copied also from Tom's plans (provided he approved). Sign me up!

David