The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

emgcr wrote:Would this one fit the bill ? Ebay now ended but presumably could still be bought ?

161575373988

Thank you.
Yes someone linked to this ebay item in my wanted ad, and a sharp eyed forum member posted this

snallast wrote:I´d be wary with this one... the motorboard is not original to the machine (this one is black and screwed on, the original is oak and has no screws as the motor is accesed from the bottom by a board you take out) also, the diaphragm mechanism has been moved to the corner instead of being in the center where it was originally. I wonder why? Perhaps someone wanted better tracking, although the tracking isn´t a problem with this one... it is hard to know.

I also think it's a little overpriced, even without these issues.

Auction Images

If this period advertisement is anything to go by, HMV clearly had high hopes for their Lumiere models, but the introduction of electrical recordings quickly exposed their limitations and many were converted to conventional acoustic systems. Thus the 460 became the 461 and the 510 became the 511.

That 510 is dreamy!

Thank you for sharing the advert.

So long as you can find one for the right price that is COMPLETE ie. not missing the brake or wooden rod as others have already said, the diaphragm might not be so much of an issue. Sure, if the diaphragm is torn the value of the machine will be much less (unless "collectorsmachines-Europe" is selling it, in which care it's worth considerably more! ) but a poor condition diaphragm can be completely replaced. Over the years I've made about 20 paper diaphragms and re-fitted them for collectors. Personally speaking, I'd much prefer to have a perfect original specimen - I currently own two such examples - but these tend to be very pricey so if your budget is tight, maybe you could consider a torn diaphragm with a view to renewing it?

Mr Grumpy wrote:Sure, if the diaphragm is torn the value of the machine will be much less (unless "collectorsmachines-Europe" is selling it, in which care it's worth considerably more! )

Yes, although I was looking for one for a couple of years and finally fell for one in Holland for 2200 euros (because I din´t find any other ones), which was a scam because the machine was a restoration job but advertised by the dealer Scwartzeshiff as one in very good condition. Now I´ve done a large part of the restoration - so what is it worth now...

The original question here then is where does one currently find a 460 Lumiere in acceptable original condition - for a reasonable price? And what IS a reasonable price on todays market? I certainly don´t come across them... ?

snallast wrote:

Mr Grumpy wrote:Sure, if the diaphragm is torn the value of the machine will be much less (unless "collectorsmachines-Europe" is selling it, in which care it's worth considerably more! )

Yes, although I was looking for one for a couple of years and finally fell for one in Holland for 2200 euros (because I din´t find any other ones), which was a scam because the machine was a restoration job but advertised by the dealer Scwartzeshiff as one in very good condition. Now I´ve done a large part of the restoration - so what is it worth now...

The original question here then is where does one currently find a 460 Lumiere in acceptable original condition - for a reasonable price? And what IS a reasonable price on todays market? I certainly don´t come across them... ?

Just for the record, you quoted my name there, but it was actually Steve that wrote that.

and of course, when I included the word 'advice' in the title of the thread that included opinions on value.
I know those are sometimes hard to eek out of people, but the input is definitely helpful.

Sorry about the misquote... I thought the site automatically would tie the right person to the quote, must look closer!

Mr Grumpy wrote:and of course, when I included the word 'advice' in the title of the thread that included opinions on value.
I know those are sometimes hard to eek out of people, but the input is definitely helpful.

It's a lottery as you know but I can give you some very rough estimates if that helps. I know of a perfect machine that sold at auction recently for just under £2000. This was a 460 with a perfect original diaphragm. Based on examples I have seen sell with torn or repaired diaphragms I would say the "typical" condition machines would sell between £800 and £1200 depending on condition of the cabinet and how good the diaphragm looks. That is quite a wide range I know but as you've already identified these do not turn up very often and when they do you're at the mercy of a very competitive market. The better condition and more original the machine is the higher the price. A real corker of a 510 (floor-stander) sold about 10 years ago at Christies for £4500!

I have seen by stark contrast a terrible 460 on eBay complete with holes drilled through the motor-board, tatty diaphragm, loose veneer etc sell for £700! Put it another way, if you find one all complete and restorable for under £500 I'd say snap it up quickly.

Hi

I have the 460 and 461.