The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

There's no question that the Diamond B can be used to play/record 2 minute celluloid cylinders. In the same vein, Polyphone Attachments were designed to play 2 minute brown wax. However, playing cylinder records either of these ways (with the appropriate cylinder types) doubles record wear. In effect, you're playing the record twice each time you listen to it. Once in a while - - what does it matter? Sure, I demonstrate a Polyphone for visitors (once every year or so); it's impressive and fun. As a preservationist, I don't choose to make a practice of it, but others are thankfully at liberty to do as they wish.

For those truly interested in "questioning established methods and conventions" of cylinder record playback, I highly recommend John Levin's excellent presentation, Re-inventing the Phonograph (CPS1), which he delivered at the 2014 APS Annual Banquet. This is available on DVD with a CD featuring 20 selections from 1893-1927 here:

http://www.antiquephono.org/shop/get-tw ... dvdcd-set/

In the presentation, John shares the results of his careful research and measurements of stylus size, weight, resultant stylus pressure, and comparative frequency responses between the Edison Automatic, Model C, the Lomas ACT reproducer, and the CPS1. Multiple graphs show the awful truth... Those Edison Automatics are surprisingly hard on brown wax, but for those who maintain that a Model C is acceptable for use with brown wax, the purchase of this DVD/CD set (less than the value of a single good brown wax record) may prevent further damage to their collections. The principles discussed in John's presentation are applicable to any cylinder reproducer, and it was an eye-opener for me.

To be clear, I'm solidly in support of private property and the right of the owner to do with it as he/she wishes. At the same time, I encourage/promote education so that the owner can make informed decisions that will be in his/her best interests and those of posterity.

George P.

And with that, the Forum and its constituent members again prove to be a veritable fountain of useful information. I will look into that link but I am in class at the moment.

"Holy smokes!

First, why can't you play 2 minute Indestructibles with a C Reproducer?"

George, sorry to mess with your mind... I guess I thought C reproducers were for black & brown wax. Since I don't like wax cylinders, I have had no use for a C reproducer and usually play Indestructibles with an H reproducer or on a machine with a floating reproducer.

I stand corrected... use your C reproducers to play 2 minute Indestructibles. My belief came from the fact that "Indestructible reproducers" (spring loaded and branded) were different from C reproducers...

Curt A wrote: ... I guess I thought C reproducers were for black & brown wax.

Let's make a further distinction - there are two kinds of brown wax:

1) The earlier brown wax cylinders sold by Edison & Columbia were individually cut by mechanical duplicating machines. They are too soft to be played by a C reproducer.

2) The later brown wax cylinders that were molded by Columbia should be harder, but I do not believe they were as hard as Edison Gold Molded black wax cylinders. There may be some debate whether even those should be played with a C reproducer.

I have read that even the black wax Columbia records were softer than the Edisons, and so again there may be divided opinions what they should be played with.

When in doubt, play those early cylinders with an Automatic or "B" [not the Diamond B!] reproducer.

Celluloid cylinders played with a model C reproducer probably can't be worn out from playing.

Have any CPSI machines been produced or sold?

billybob62 wrote:Have any CPSI machines been produced or sold?

I asked John Levin the same thing after viewing the DVD. He's looking into it, but at this point there are no definite plans. Should the CPS1 ever be offered commercially, I'm sure you'll hear about it on this forum.

George P.

Well as George P. and others have already pointed out,
it really all boils down to the unit pressure on the record. A two minute groove is twice as wide as a four
minute groove. The two minute stylus is shaped to track
that nice wide groove. The four minute stylus is made
to track the four minute groove which is only half the
width of the two minute groove.

So, when a 2 minute record is played using a 4 minute
stylus, the pressure per unit area is roughly twice
as great as it is when the 2 minute record is played
with the 2 minute stylus. It's even greater than that
actually though, due to the stylus tip geometry.

Then, add to that the fact that the weight used on
the diamond B reproducer is much much greater than
either a C or an H has, then the unit pressure becomes
much much greater!

This is something I experienced very early on.
Back in the mid 1960s, a co-worker of my dad's had
an Amberola 1A machine at his house with a wonderful
collection of many hundreds of cylinders of all types.

He was lazy though. He did not like flipping over the
M reproducer's styli, so he simply left it play
always using the 4M stylus! All he'd do is change
the feed. Needless to say, some of his wonderfully
smooth and shiny Gold Moulded 2M records had started
sounding harsh and they had the telltale dark brownish
look in the bottoms of their otherwise pristine grooves.
There was not a spot of mold anywhere to be seen.

However, due to his misunderstanding of unit pressure,
he was actively ruining every last 2 minute black wax
record he played that way. I was only an 11 year old
kid at the time, and I knew to keep my mouth shut.

So, the general rule of thumb is play 2M grooves with
a 2M stylus and 4M grooves with a 4M stylus.
And always remember, those "diamond" series cylinder
reproducers have weights on them which are approximately
as heavy as a Baldwin steam locomotive!

Chuck