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Thanks for the education John. That's what is so great about this site.

Here are two new pic's of what John is referring to. The weak point concerning the button verse the rivet explains why the previous owner elected to glue the elbow to the end of the horn. If you look at the tab in the slot, it appears ready to fail at any second. Hate to see a grown man cry....

Also you can see the horn rim is actually squared off and the decal is the earlier black decal.

And now you know the rest of the story...

Blizz

I remember in the TV movie"The Homecoming",which is the pilot for "The Waltons"the Baldwin sisters Mamie and Emily had a Victor 6.They played a Caruso record on it.I forget what the record was that they played.Does anyone remember?edisonplayer

I'm sure Don Gfell could separate the pieces easily if the new owner were so inclined. Personally, I don't think it's a huge deal since you can still remove the elbow from the machine quite easily in order to remove the horn.

I agree with John. The machine is in overall nice condition. It is a later model as mentioned in the listing.

Regarding the horn and to add to John's comments, these early production speartip horns did indeed have a very soft pewter (tin/lead) spun connector. They are not very commonly found today.

They do not stay connected very well while supported by an elbow. In fact, the pewter is so soft, that over time they will deform from the weight of the horn and the risk of the horn dislodging and falling is great.

Because of this, I would have to assume many were either traded in or discarded once the better two piece brass nickel plated design came available.

These pewter ends are stamped "PAT'D SEPT 1904 MARCH 1905" circled in red.

Also, as John mentioned, these early horns have a squared outer wood bell ring and not molded as seen on later horns.

The decal that was used, is again of the very early type used on wood horns. I have never seen a black/red decal on a wood horn. These were used on Victor metal horns..B&B, flower.
I have to say (based on the posted pic) the decal on the horn seems too "yellow" in the areas that normally appear as gold metallic. Maybe it's just the pic..??.
Can any member post another decal like shown with this yellow please...??.

I'm not certain about the "blister or bubble pin" described by John. Perhaps someones later attempt at fixing the issue. Mine has the two piece rivet that was patented and used by Victor from the beginning of bayonet locking design.
Maybe my rivet was a later adaptation done by a Victor dealer for a customer..??.

I have to use small dabs of thick crazy glue in order to keep the horn safe while on a machine.

Removing the elbow (why bother??) could be risky as these ends are just glued onto the wood. Therefore, you may take the whole thing off. Better to just leave it alone IMHO.

Now the down side about all this.......Because this Vic. VI is a later production made machine and in my opinion.....the horn is "technically" incorrect for it.

According to the Victor Data Book there were approx. 17,468 Victor 6 were produced between 1904 and 1915 with the majority of them made prior to 1908. The serial numbers range from the 507 to 14001.

Giving the fact this the serial number on this machine is only 7395, I fail to see how you can surmise that this is a later machine. Not that this makes any kind of a difference to me but is there any other indicators for you to come up with this opinion?

I am figuring this machine probably was born around 1907 or earlier..

blizz

fmblizz wrote:According to the Victor Data Book there were approx. 17,468 Victor 6 were produced between 1904 and 1915 with the majority of them made prior to 1908. The serial numbers range from the 507 to 14001.

Giving the fact this the serial number on this machine is only 7395, I fail to see how you can surmise that this is a later machine. Not that this makes any kind of a difference to me but is there any other indicators for you to come up with this opinion?

I am figuring this machine probably was born around 1907 or earlier..

blizz

As I wrote, this is just my opinion based on many years of collecting. I could always be wrong and would love to see other evidence against my opinion. I have Victor catalogs that show the later (rear crank VI) and the horns have the later end.
I have also owned several Vic. Vi's ( not that it means anything).

Keep in mind, this is not a bad thing. The potential buyer is actually getting a much rarer horn.
I just think it is a marriage however. Unless of course you have evidence that the horn has always been with the machine since new..??.

We also don't really know what the end is for sure. We will not know unless the painted gold elbow is removed. So, right now all of this is just speculation at best.

Blizz, I just realized something you wrote earlier in the thread...."No the brass cup is present inside & out". If what you wrote is correct and there is an "inside" to this connector.....then, it is not a pewter end at all. As one can see (in my pics), there is no inner part to a pewter end. Maybe, yours is the brass two part end and if so.....your horn (in my opinion) is correct to your later model.

I was incorrect. I looked down the throat using daylight but now that I removed the horn and used a flashlight beam is it very obvious that the setup is very similar to yours. The color of the metal appears to be a grayish metal probably pewter like was suggested. Also this metal folds down over the end of the wood I guess in the area of 3/8th to ½ of an inch...

Now the plot thickens. This machine had two tubs of lubricant inside when I purchased it. One was called Dixon's Graphitoleo and the other called Electric lubricant..

These were wrapped up in a piece of newspaper and guess what, I got lucky and the small piece of newspaper actually included a date of June 26, 1908.

Starting to feel like the TV series Mystery Detectives.. LOL

With this information I have to say the machine can not date any later then 1908 unless someone went through the trouble of putting an old dated newspaper in it.

I have included a picture. I don't throw anything out

As far as the elbow being painted, I used a gold leaf product call Rub'nBuff. This is a metallic finish that you just apply with your finger and basically smear on, let it dry a few minutes and buff. This product can easily be removed with too much buffing or a small amount of paint thinner.

Having the elbow cleaned up a little made for a much better presentation in my home but like I said is easily reversible for the purest out there.

Blizz

70% of the elbow is the original brushed gold finish

That's very interesting and may possibility help date the machine itself. However, I believe the horn predates this year by approximately two years. I date the horn as late 1905 (post March) to early 1906. Based on the very few surviving examples in both oak and mahogany along with the obvious issues....they were very short lived on the market. In my opinion.

Can you post some pics of your connector please. I would love to see the horn decal closer too if possible.

Buy the way, not to be an old Granny....the gold plating on the elbow, etc.. was not a brushed finish. This form of mercury plating and karat of gold used, produced this type of finish. Hence why it is not correctly duplicated today. Simply put.....too toxic.

Here are a couple more pic's. Had a hard time getting a pic inside. Did not want to focus and my camera will not let me focus manually. I zoomed in with software.

Hope this helps.

Gary Blizzard