The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Heh. Good call on the island location, Wayne. I'm not anywhere near Washington, but if I had to take the ferry to Block Island, which is about fifteen miles off the Rhode Island coast, to get the same machine for the same price, it might well be a dealbreaker. Or at least a bargaining chip in negotiating a lower price -- by phone!

I see how you're coming up with a figure of four hundred by including the cost of new binders. I'm not someone who cares much about binders -- except in the case of L-Door machines, where they're much more a part of the architecture, to my eyes at least -- so I wasn't thinking about that. Eight binders in good shape could easily add a couple hundred, or close to it. But if a buyer can do without them, I do think this machine could be made good for that much less.

As far as the brass reproducer, I agree that it's not entirely correct for this machine, but I'd still want one too, what with pot-metal ones tending toward crumbling day by day -- or at least year by year. Until recently I was under the impression that a pot-metal reproducer wouldn't degrade much further from its 2015 condition if kept within any reasonable climate controls, but I was told by a 50-year collector that that's not the case at all. I'm still kicking myself for not jumping on the beautiful brass one Gene E. offered on the forum a few months ago, even though brass wouldn't be historically correct for my machine either...I still want one.

Cody,

The pot-metal Ortho on my Great Grandmother's 1927 8-12 is still crack-free.


Keeping them away from moisture helps.


I suppose once they've developed cracking, they're on their way to oblivion...


I wonder if continuing to play them exacerbates the cracking...

What I still think is true is that if old pot-metal hasn't developed cracks by now, it probably isn't going to. It may have been made with a better formula, or have been cast during the sweet spot in the manufacturing day when the temperature of the alloy was just right, or both. I've been told that workers might toss cigarette butts or other random stuff into the mix as they worked through the day, though I don't know how they'd get away with that for long. What I do believe is that pot-metal's longevity could be affected by the temperature of a batch when it was cast -- too early in the morning it might be a bit too cold, having cooled down some overnight. Too late in the day, it might be a little too cool because the heat was shut down in preparation for closing. Middle of the day? Goldilocks' porridge!

I don't think these things were made with a view toward lasting a hundred years. But if, like your grandmother's, it's still sound today, I guess it can be expected to stay that way, especially when protected from extremes of temperature or dampness. Here in New England, it's got to be darn hard for the stuff not to swell on a 98-degree day with our million-percent humidity.

Apparently it's true that once cracking has begun, it's hard to arrest. I've resorted to just a thin line of black epoxy on the cracks on my main Orthophonic soundbox, applied with the tip of a toothpick. So far so good, but I'm not entirely sure that this will work forever, because it seems like there'd be a risk that diminishing whatever flexibility the crack allowed could put stress elsewhere, causing new cracks. (I don't have actual science for this, though -- the idea's just based on what happened when I gave a rattly but much-loved old truck to an ambitious young friend, who welded the bed's loose joints back together. The bed then proceeded to come apart pretty much everywhere else!)

I've also wondered whether the vibrations and pressures of using one might contribute to its continuing to crack -- only time will tell. I won't be around in 2055 to worry about it, though. And if by some chance I am, I'll just 3-D print a new reproducer every time I need one.

It's my belief that Victor must have recognized problems back in the day with its reproducer pot-metal rather soon. Most reproducers I've had from about 1927-on have been very stable. This doesn't include the pot-metal components in the VE 10-50 changer however!
Bob

Well, lots of manufacturers had pot-metal problems prior to WW II.

In the antique car world, folks with V-8 cars of the mid to late 1920's can tell you horror stories about their Stromberg UX(?) carburetors that warp and crack and crumble and drip gasoline down onto a hot engine, and folks with early four-cylinder Chevrolets whose generator end-frames and distributor bodies crumble into nothing- ness, and most any maker who made interior door and window handles from pot-metal...

I'm still trying to develop a system of taxonomy for the various incarnations of the Victor Orthophonic Sound-Box ( OSB ).

It would appear that the earliest version is the all-brass unit (Version 1), that appeared on the "named" Orthos ( as opposed to the numbered successors ): CREDENZA, CONSOLETTE, etc.

The pot-metal OSBs then had some variations (placed in what I believe to be chronological order):

Version 2 - pot-metal body & cover, with phase-plug in throat, long spanner slots in the retaining ring, and rubber-cushions and
washers under the bearing covers (installed ridge-out).

Version 3 - pot-metal body & cover, no phase-plug, but a three-legged stamped "finger-guard" in throat, round spanner-holes in the retaining ring, and magnetized needle-bar journal and bearings (no rubber, no washers), covers installed ridge-in.

Version 4(?) - Portable OSB - with cover and felt muffler (unsure about phase-plug, spanner ring, bearing details. I haven't taken one of these apart yet.).

I have a couple examples of Version 2 and Version 3, and it's been kind of a toss-up, but I'm not sure I see much difference in condition with respect to age or version... I've got a second Version 2, that(along with the one from my Great Grandmother's machine) has excellent pot-metal, but has one leg of the spider popped-out of the diaphragm, and chunks of pink pencil eraser where the bearing-balls and washers should be ). I've got an example of Version 3, whose front-cover is split-open and "blossomed" at the back side, but there's absolutely no sign anywhere of tool or pry marks, and the back-plate and spanner ring are intact and usable .


I do think it might have to do with the hit-or-miss qualities of individual batches of the alloy, combined with storage conditions.

In the case of my Great-Grandmother's machine until I acquired it in 1985, it always lived in the "front parlor", where the shades were drawn, and there was a tapestry runner across the top. It saw little to no sunlight, no extremes of temperature, and no dampness (Augusta Co. Virginia). If anything, the house probably got a little dry in the winters, but that would be the only adverse climate. In short, I think it lived in pretty ideal conditions. It still lives in ideal conditions...


My backyard theory is that if nothing else, the war effort demanded a stable, reliable alloy for die-casting, and the stuff got a lot better from then on. It might not have taken that long, but for sure, Uncle Sam wouldn't tolerate crumbly die-cast gizmoes when we were trying to win a war...

The last version of the OSB (for the 2-65 porto, specifically) seems to be the best - no cracks, no warps, no phase-plug, no spider. Bass is great & treble is mostly free of the earlier Orthophonic distortion. They are the only soundboxes I use on my full size Orthophonics.

Edisone wrote:The last version of the OSB (for the 2-65 porto, specifically) seems to be the best - no cracks, no warps, no phase-plug, no spider. Bass is great & treble is mostly free of the earlier Orthophonic distortion. They are the only soundboxes I use on my full size Orthophonics.

Any distinguishing marks, or do they look the same as the other OSBs for portables, except for the changes noted ?

"RCA Victor" is how they're marked.

Back in the later 1970's I met an old guy that said he was an engineer for Victor back in the second half of the 20's into the early 30's. We visited for about 2 hours and he was really proud of the fact that he had worked for Victor in those days. RCA not so much. Actually, not at all. He really hated the "Sarnoff bunch" as he put it and really was upset at what they did to the Victor company once they took over. I remember him saying something like, if that SOB Sarnoff didn't think it was going to make money, it went to the landfill.
Anyway, I must have asked him about those Orthophonic sound boxes and he said that the early one's were brass of course but that Victor did not make the change to pot metal to save money, they felt that pot metal was more "dead" than brass and that the pot metal one's sounded better. In those days I really didn't know very much about the later Victrolas (But I did have a portable orthophonic in those days) and in the 70's I can't imagine very many collectors being interested in them. He was a very nice old guy and knew all about how the recordings were made and was very excited to talk about being around when things changed over to electric recording.
He also talked about what a wonderful and optimistic age the 20's was and really felt the music they were recording at the time reflected that. Victor rented or church or something to do recording work in and he really seemed to think those recordings were especially good. And the recordings were as true to the performance as was possible. He didn't think that was the case and in fact said that once pretty much all electric phonographs with a tone control were being offered by the early 30's, they didn't spend as much time making the recordings as realistic. He said that most people turn up the bass, and turn down the treble so the "average listener isn't too concerned about realism" I have no idea who he was anymore or why he was at the Christmas party I met him at. At the time I probably figured we would talk again, but it never happened.

Edisone wrote:"RCA Victor" is how they're marked.

Thank you. That's pretty easy.