The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

AllenKoe wrote:
Looking at your Dec 2011 article, I am puzzled by Footnote 3 and the text 'reference' to Footnote 7.

Allen K.

Me too.

AllenKoe wrote: As far as I can tell, the first series of Models A, B, and C appeared in April and or May of 1900. After all, it was on April 6th, 1900 that Columbia assigned Seaman a license to issue them (officially).

I came to the same conclusion in my article published in 1985 in The Antique Phonograph Monthly. The Cosmopolitan ad to which I referred was also pictured in that article.

Here's the March 1899 Phonoscope ad for what I believe was a prototypical Zonophone.
George P.

Thank you for posting the back cover of Mar 1899 (Phonoscope). I do like that special price of $7.50 for one machine. He also conveniently doesn't show the reproducer.

I am looking at your article in APM from 1986 (Vol VIII, No. 3), p. 7, which shows a full page Cosmopolitan ad of the glass-sided model.

But the caption (as printed) says that Cosmo ad is from 1899. Is that possible?
If that were true, then it would have been available before 1900.
Thanks for clarification. Did you mean a different article?

Allen K.

AllenKoe wrote: I am looking at your article in APM from 1986 (Vol VIII, No. 3), p. 7, which shows a full page Cosmopolitan ad of the glass-sided model.

But the caption (as printed) says that Cosmo ad is from 1899. Is that possible?
If that were true, then it would have been available before 1900.
Thanks for clarification. Did you mean a different article?

Allen K.

No, that Cosmopolitan ad dates from sometime after April 7, 1900. I don't believe I used that ad in any other article other than the one on Columbia's entry into the disc market. I thought it appeared in 1985, but that must have been when I wrote it!

George P.

Thank you for clarifying the (1986) article and that captioned Cosmo ad.

Did you suggest (where?) that Berliner in 1899 lowered his own price as a result of 'competition' from the Zonophone Model C (which sold for $18)? But if we now agree that the first Model C appeared for sale in April-May 1900, how is that possible? DO we now agree that Zonophones were only on 'regular' sale in 1900 and that the continuous ridges (on the C) were the first type?

Allen

I thought I would add the Nov. 1899 page showing the "feed screw" Zonophone (prototype..??) into the discussion.

Aha, I now see that all the Phonoscope issues (up to Dec 1899?) have been posted online by the Library of Congress. Those scans DO include the necessary back covers - where Fred Prescott liked to put his "vaporware." (aka one-time ads)

Some believe that Louis P. Valiquet (the inventor) died in 1925, perhaps in Chicago, Illinois. It is not yet clear where/when he was born.

Allen

The machines case shown in the Nov. issue appears (by design) to be either a Type "A" (if the panels are glass) or a Type "B".
Unfortunately, there is no mention either way.

The Zonophone sound box appears also to be referred to as the "entirely new Exhibition" In this Nov. 1899 ad.
Just as the Clark-Johnson was referred to in the same period National Gramophone Corp. catalog (Dec. 1899).

There is also mention of an "ingenious" connection between horn and sound box without "bothersome" leather elbow.

AllenKoe wrote:

Starkton wrote: It seems that in Germany, in spring 1898, some Berliner gramophones were imported and sold under the designation "Zonophon".

This seems rather early for a 'Zonophon' designation, even in Germany.
As you say, the term was first used for Berliner Gramophones (by Seaman), but this early Spring date doesn't seem right. Can you check? The term was trademarked in the US with first appearance given as Aug 11, 1898.
[...]
Allen K.

The term "Zonophon" for "phonographic sound instruments" was first registered in March 1898 by an import-export warehouse of musical instruments, located in Hamburg, Germany.

This date corresponds nicely with the advertisement by the National Gramophone Co. on February 24, 1898 in the New York Evening Post, in which the gramophone was designated as the “Zonophone: Improved Gramophone”.

AllenKoe wrote: Did you suggest (where?) that Berliner in 1899 lowered his own price as a result of 'competition' from the Zonophone Model C (which sold for $18)?

No, my wording was that, "...[All] this came at a price equal to or less than the $25.00 Berliner Improved Gramophone. (This no doubt accounts for the lowered [price of the Berliner in 1899 to $18.00; bringing it down to the cost of a Zonophone Type C.)" Since the Type C hadn't existed in 1899, model-to-model competition was clearly not the case. However, after the capitalization of the National Gramophone Corporation on March 10, 1899, the Berliner forces must have foreseen the eventuality of competition. National was still selling the Improved Gramophone (until October 1899), so Seaman's efforts to have the price lowered must have eventually borne fruit.

AllenKoe wrote: DO we now agree that Zonophones were only on 'regular' sale in 1900 and that the continuous ridges (on the C) were the first type?

If by "regular sale" you mean in the U.S., yes. As mentioned in the December 2011 article in The Antique Phonograph, the Phonoscope reported the export of Zonophones to England by January 1900. There have also been early production Zonophones found with Prescott "export" celluloid tags and full-ridged cabinets. It's possible that those full-ridged cabinets were intended for export use, although if typical U.S. National Gramophone Corp. tags exist on these, it would suggest a chronology. If so, a comparison of serial numbers would be in order.

George P.

gramophone78 wrote:The machines case shown in the Nov. issue appears (by design) to be either a Type "A" (if the panels are glass) or a Type "B".
Unfortunately, there is no mention either way.

The Zonophone sound box appears also to be referred to as the "entirely new Exhibition" In this Nov. 1899 ad.
Just as the Clark-Johnson was referred to in the same period National Gramophone Corp. catalog (Dec. 1899).

There is also mention of an "ingenious" connection between horn and sound box without "bothersome" leather elbow.

Berliner 1899 Catalog.jpg

How would one tell this Zonophone soundbox apart from a C-J?